The Keri Croft Show
The Keri Croft Show
SZN 4, EP-3. Amy Nelson, founder of The Riveter, on Falling Apart, Fighting Back & Building.
Get ready for this inspo packed conversation with Amy Nelson! She's a powerhouse of resilience, courage, and entrepreneurial spirit, IMO. Amy briefly recounts her family's harrowing experience with Amazon & the DOJ, but we spent more of our time talking about Amy as a person, and less time on Amazon. We figured they've already gotten too much air time and there's SO much more to Amy's story. (If you're curious about the selacious details of the case you're welcome to hit the Google machine though.)
Amy also shares her transition from attorney to entrepreneur, and the passion and vision behind creating The Riveter, a co-working space designed to empower women. Her dedication to fostering genuine connections and supporting women in business shines brightly, so it's no wonder she has such a strong network of supporters behind her. Join us for a remarkable episode filled with courage, transformation, and the unyielding belief in the power of perseverance.
Thank you, Amy! You're amazing.
Hey there you beautiful badass. Welcome to the Keri Croft Show. I'm your host, keri Croft, delivering you stories that get you pumped up and feeling like the unstoppable savage that you are. So grab your coffee, put on your game face and let's do this thing, baby.
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Speaker 3:You ready? I'm ready.
Speaker 2:Fuck yeah, you're ready. You're like am I ready, Talk to me about my life? The last four years, bitch I'm ready, I'm ready for your little podcast.
Speaker 3:No, I'm excited you are.
Speaker 2:I am Good, I'm excited too. Amy Nelson, welcome to the Keri Croft Show. Thanks so much for having me, keri, you've got badass bitch energy.
Speaker 3:Maybe it's just all black.
Speaker 2:It definitely is. It's giving badass, but like and knowing your story. But even if you didn't have the Amazon story, like you just being who you are, like sitting down with you and having coffee. I'm like this. This girl is a force you are a force.
Speaker 3:Well, I've had it.
Speaker 2:I've had a fascinating life, oh, my gosh yes, you have so let's just glaze over, because I feel like the people in the streets, if they want to look you up, there's a lot out there, yeah, especially your TikToks, which that's how I originally heard about your story with Amazon. In a very small nutshell, just for the person at home that's like who is Amy Nelson? What are you talking about with Amazon?
Speaker 3:Yeah, my husband worked at Amazon for about eight years. He worked for AWS they build data centers and he left, started his own real estate development company. Nine months later, FBI shows up at her house and over the course of four years, we learn that the DOJ is investigating him for a crime called private sector honest services fraud, which is allegedly like violating your private employment terms. Amazon had accused him of a crime. The DOJ seized all of our assets for 22 months, like took our money out of our bank accounts for 22 months, and we had to prove my husband's innocence. He was never charged with a crime like never even charged, never convicted but never charged.
Speaker 3:And we went through all of this, including an FBI raid. It was wild and in trying to prove his innocence, at a certain point, you know, I looked at him and I was like the only way we do this is by doing it in the light, Right? You know Jeff Bezos owns the post. He says democracy dies in the darkness. I agree. And so we just went public with it because we didn't have anything to hide or be ashamed of. And it was the unexpected thing, Right, Because I think people in power think if they've got you in a vice you're going to be quiet and you're going to obey, and so we just fought it out publicly and the DOJ closed their investigation, didn't charge my husband. We got our money back. My husband beat Amazon in a civil lawsuit. But like I go quickly over it, but it's been hell, it's been a lot. It's been hell and like like winning. We didn't win anything, we survived right, and so now our life is very different, Do you?
Speaker 2:think you will win. Can you go after them though, for, like emotional damage and all that? Like you can do that?
Speaker 3:right. Yeah, my husband has already sued them and already won part of it. And then you know, there's so many more other things to come in the world around this. But for us, more than anything, like part of the reason we went public is and I have this TikTok that we would talk to 250,000 people about it now every day is I wanted our four little girls to see in real time how we fought, because they're going to grow up and read about it and I want it's their story too. And so I wanted to have this. And when I started, I didn't know what happened. I didn't know if my husband would get charged, if he would be arrested in front of them, and I wanted them to know that we tried to win and what courage was and what the truth was. And so you know, they have, they have that. But the other part of it too, and the reason we still fight, even though we beat Amazon, is that you don't let a bully go after you and then not try to make it right.
Speaker 2:Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, I mean, there's a circle that still needs to close here. And you know and it's not all about monetary gain I think, looking back this last four years, you've lost things that you'll never get back your peace of mind, your stability of Columbus, like did you have any money at all to, like, go buy groceries?
Speaker 3:or how did that? I mean what did that feel? Like that was wild. I mean that was like I'd never. It's called civil forfeiture. I'd never heard of it. To be honest with you, I'm a lawyer and I'd never heard of it. But it happens to lots of Americans every day in different ways. But you know, we.
Speaker 3:So the FBI showed up on April 2nd 2020 for the first time and they gave my husband a letter that day saying they intended to seize our assets and basically it's like don't move them out of these three accounts, like listed three bank accounts. And then if you move money out of those accounts, that could have been seen as like evidence of a crime, even though he's never been charged with anything. And so we left all the money in those accounts and didn't move it. But we had like I had my bank account, we had another joint account that they didn't list there, and so we paid lawyers from a joint account. They seized the money we paid lawyers from the lawyers bank accounts. I mean bananas. But between April 2nd and when they took our money in the middle of May, we opened a new account and started putting money we were making right then in the new account. So we had like a month and a half of earnings. That's what we had Right and it was just. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 2:And your husband Carl Yep, the impact it's had on him. I mean, marriage goes through shit, right. Yeah, this is an extraordinary circumstance where I'm sure the both of you were tested in ways where you're like holy shit, like what about that? What about your marriage? What about your kids? Like, what about that? What about your marriage? What about your kids? Like, can you think of? I'm sure there's gifts too, I'm sure there's resilience and everything else. But looking back, what else emotionally kind of strikes you where, like, you took that or you created that.
Speaker 3:I mean they, they like you mentioned it they took our sense of safety and peace right, like when the FBI raids your home, you no longer feel safe at home. That's what I can tell you. Like they don't. You know they don't knock, they bang and they have guns and it is terrifying and you feel like you're in a movie. But it's happening to you.
Speaker 3:And we had four little kids and it was just. I mean, our kids were under the age of six when this started. They were in diaper, I mean it was. But yeah, I mean Carl had to deal with something far different than I had to deal with and that was a bridge. He had to walk alone. Like I didn't know what it was like to say every morning, these people are trying to put me in a cage. I don't know. I don't know how he survived it. I don't, I really don't. For four years, right, like to have that uncertainty. But like we both, you know it's like there are ways we came together, like we came together to fight and there are ways we fell apart to each other. Right, like two working parents of four little kids is like madness. To begin with, layer a pandemic. My business blew up and he's being faced with prison, and it's just like you don't really think about your marriage for a long time because you're just thinking about survival Right.
Speaker 2:So I think that that's part of it Are you at a phase though now that sort of he has been vindicated, you have a new house you moved into. Are you starting to kind of look at it? It's not over yet, but a little bit in the rear view. Can you kind of take a breath at all?
Speaker 3:yet I mean, when the DOJ investigation ended in January of twenty twenty four, for me that was a game changing moment because like, okay, now we're just dealing with Amazon, now we're just dealing with a trillion dollar company, not the Department of Justice, which I know sounds crazy, but that that was game changing. But yeah, I mean like we we are living. Like sometimes I kind of look around and I'm like I cannot believe that, like our children are pretty okay, that we're both working, like how, how right, you know, because we've never stopped living, I think. At one point I thought, if we don't have forever with Carl, I just want to take advantage of the time we do have, which is like a horrible thing to think. But, um, yeah, I mean like, but, yes, like we are, you know, moving forward in a lot of ways, like he's, he's working and building things again and and so, yeah, there are ways we move forward. And then there are ways where you're like this is never going to end.
Speaker 2:We're like halfway through it, you know, because the legal system is slow as molasses in America.
Speaker 3:The wheels of justice. They turn slowly, if they turn at all. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So for people listening to this and they're just meeting you for the first time and a lot of people, their entryway into you is this Amazon situation. But when I sat down with you for coffee because we got introduced by Kate Borges from the massage garage, you know it's fascinating what an accomplished, badass human you are Like. Move aside the Amazon situation. Like, you are a very impressive human being in terms of went to NYU, you know. You know you're an attorney. That wasn't. That wasn't all. You were an entrepreneur, created the river which, by the way, is a bad-ass space for women and you built it up pre COVID, right, I mean so like there's so much to talk about. And you were on Obama's what financial committee.
Speaker 3:So a group of people, about 10 of us. Back in 2007, we started this organization called Gen 44, which was the under 40 fundraising arm for the Obama presidential campaign.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I don't want like this Amazon situation is definitely but, but put it aside for a minute and let's just put some shine on you as a person and everything you continue to accomplish. I mean I'm in awe of that, and so I think people can Google the rest about Amazon and go down their rabbit holes of the salacious, you know, juicy shit. I mean I will say to you kudos for your TikTok and if anybody hasn't seen it.
Speaker 2:Go to her TikTok and just watch the way she literally like took on. I mean, you didn't care, You're like, this is my story, we're going to put this out there and we're going to fight, and that's just so great, it's so badass to me.
Speaker 3:Well, it is like, and I think like it's kind of a combination of a lot of the things I've done in my life, but like when you're kind of, when you're in a corner, there's only one way out and it's to go right through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Right, and and also like they threatened us with guns, took all of our money, like I'm not going to lay down for any of this, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I feel like if they had Googled us before they went after my husband, like they would have. Maybe figured that out about us. Yeah, but who knows?
Speaker 2:Okay, so, speaking of Obama and the Democratic Party, and I feel like you're a special case in which I think you, you will talk about politics and you're smart about it, and so I do. In this whole state of the world, and you and I had brushed on it at coffee because you were, quite you were, you were very much a Democrat. Oh yeah, and so just talk through your own experience with being a Democrat, as these elections have sort of evolved. And then what just happened? Like what do you think about everything?
Speaker 3:I mean, I've had a wild ride on the political side because I spent my life not just like voting as a Democrat, but truly believing in it, like a lot of people might believe in a religion which I think is how a lot of people feel, you know but I it was a North Star to me. I believed in the party, I believed the party meant something, I believed the party meant something. And then, and I also, like I thought it was a party of justice and a party that would help people in trouble, like whether you know, you're an older person who needs medicine or a kid who doesn't have enough food. And then, when all this happened to my family, I reached out to a lot of people on the Democratic side in politics to talk to them to see who I should lobby, who I should advocate, you know, who could help me. And no one would talk to me really like at all and it was kind of was mind blowing to me. And then it was even more interesting because there were people who would talk to me and it was really like it was, I guess what you would call like the MAGA world, right, like I went on Tucker Carlson's show, I went on Glenn Beck and a lot of my very progressive friends who hadn't messaged me to see how I was, how my family was doing, like, just out of the blue, send me emails like I can't believe you did that, I would never do that To which I responded like you have no idea what you would do if someone was coming for your family Like I'm not going to. I was like I'm not going to sit there 10 years from now and tell my daughters I'm sorry I couldn't try to help your daddy because I don't like Tucker Carlson's politics, right, like he's a journalist and he wanted to hear our truth, right.
Speaker 3:And it was also very interesting to me because I was called a conspiracy theorist by a lot of people, including Amazon's lawyers. They like made a filing in federal court, calling me a conspiracy theorist, and like we won. And why were they calling you conspiracy theorist? Because everyone says why did Amazon come after your husband and Amazon had partnered with one of their business partners, kicked a real estate developer out of a contract and per like that contract? The only way the real estate developer could be kicked out without hundreds of millions of dollars in damages is that the developer was found guilty or pled guilty to a felony. They kick him out on February 19th 2020. They meet with the DOJ on February 20th 2020. Like this is they weren't really trying to hide it, right, but they call Amazon's lawyers, called me a conspiracy theorist in federal court filings and litigation that I'm not in Like citing to my TikToks just to try to shut me down.
Speaker 3:So, anyway, they're calling me a conspiracy theorist and I'm like, but the only journalists who will listen to me are Glenn Beck and Tucker Carlson and everyone says they're conspiracy theorists and it kind of just like blows your mind open, right of like what's happening. And you know, I don't think that journalism should be political, but in this country now it is Right, like there is no fourth estate that is independent, it is, it is political, that's where we are, and so, and then like also like Senator Mike Lee, like lots of Republican politicians, invited me up to the Hill, spoke with me and helped our family. You know they couldn't tell the DOJ don't do, don't do this, but they talked with us and they helped us navigate it and it really meant something that people would hear me. It and it really meant something that people would hear me. And you know, I don't know what to think about the political landscape, except that we are so polarized we're not willing to hear something that doesn't fit into what we want to believe, right, like.
Speaker 3:It's like you take the Hunter Biden pardon. I don't, like. I don't think Hunter Biden should have been prosecuted for what he was prosecuted for, right, but he was, and I fully expected his father to pardon him. The president has the pardon power. What I take issue with is that Biden said he wouldn't pardon him and then just completely went back on it. It's like why lie in the first? You're going to pardon your son, he's your son, you're going to do that, right. But then also in his letter about it, he said I just the prosecution of my son was selective. It was selective prosecution, and I'm like President Biden I don't know if you know the Department of Justice, but everything they do is selective, right, like a prosecutor in Connecticut might charge you with a crime where the same prosecutor in Dallas wouldn't, and it could depend on who. You know how much money you have. Are you going to fight? Right, the whole thing is selective. And so if you're going to do that, why not pardon all the people in prison for?
Speaker 3:lying on a gun application. Why wouldn't you do that? Why wouldn't you treat everybody the same if you're mad at the DOJ for being selective? But it was interesting. I made a TikTok about that and half of people are like, oh my God, hunter Biden should have been prosecuted for so much more. And the other half were like, oh my God, you're a rabid MAGA. What are you saying? And I'm like what I'm saying is like a nuanced position. That should be pretty obvious. Like don't like just treat everyone the same. If you're going to, don't lie, but it doesn't fit into somebody's political view, so they just can't even hear it, and I just think that's like the death of America. Like we should be able to talk, you should be able to understand that not everything you think is going to fit into a progressive position or a Republican position, and you should, I think, also like question everything you're told at this point, who's telling it to you?
Speaker 2:Question echo chamber too. It's like 100% get outside of your own, that's. But I'm like that by nature. I'm always questioning, and if I think something, is there something that can challenge what I'm thinking. I'm just built that way, but I don't think that's the norm.
Speaker 3:I don't think it is anymore right. I think it's like scary for people to stand in the middle and question and fight and and debate and learn and Right, like you don't learn if you sit in your echo chamber. And I think you know I've said to a lot of my progressive friends, like To say that everyone who voted for Trump is racist or sexist or something nativist, I don't know. Like over half the country voted for him, so perhaps you should speak to that half of the country and hear what they have to say and why they made that choice and what they think of Trump. And I just think it's incredibly important. And I also think you know, in 2016, when I voted for Hillary no, yes, hillary, it was 2016, I voted for Hillary and I stood there and I resisted, right, I was like I am I, you know I'm I didn't go to Washington in March because I was pregnant, but I was, like you know, pink hats, like I resist. I spoke at the Women's March in Seattle.
Speaker 3:And this time, the way that I feel about all of this and I hope I wish all of America would feel this way, especially if you voted, if you didn't vote, for Trump, take the issues you care the most about and try to do the good you can. Well, the party you didn't vote for is in power. If you think about, like I go back to 2004, when John Kerry was running against Bush and I was living in New York, I came back to Ohio to do like, get out the vote the week before the election and it was very clear to me in Canton, ohio, where I was, that, like the wedge issue was gay marriage. The Republicans were running on an anti-gay marriage platform, the Democrats were pro-gay marriage. Bush won. And if, at that point in time, everyone who's progressive had said you know what, fuck it, we're not speaking to the Republicans, they're homophobic and we won't talk to them, we wouldn't have gay marriage today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right and like, because we stayed in the game and we educated one another and we talked. We have gay marriage, like, and it just to me, it's that simple, like you have, and I lost sight of that for a while, but like you, you have to.
Speaker 2:You have to talk, yeah, and cause. Like right now you can't control who won, it's done, it's done. But you can control now how you're going to proceed and move forward and improve your little you know ripple in this huge world. I mean, you're a tiny little speck of you know. That's another reminder, but I like to tell people every once in a while it's like your opinion and you are a tiny little speck of shit dust on the big rock that we're all on.
Speaker 3:So just like spinning through space, yeah, improve your atmosphere, like literally and to that point, which I think is really important, like your atmosphere, a lot of it is right around you, and so if you are spending hours every week online engaged in some bullshit debate with people whose name you don't even know, stop like, come back to where you live in your community, go outside, volunteer somewhere, say hello to your neighbor right Like take up a local issue, do what matters.
Speaker 3:It's here. All politics is local and you will do much more good in the world by turning and looking at the people next to you and around you in real life. Then you will engage in a dumb debate on a platform on the internet which is not a real place?
Speaker 2:Absolutely no, for sure. It's this imaginary wild situation. Yeah, let's keep moving into. So you are. You are an attorney, and you're an entrepreneur. Yeah, I find that to be like. I mean, you've got it all, You've got the fricking toolbox, You've got. You're like what's in my arsenal.
Speaker 3:I mean, I will like, I will say, being a lawyer has helped me in entrepreneurship a lot.
Speaker 2:Absolutely it has. So let's talk about, though, when you decided to spawn into the Riveter, and what was inside of you to make that happen and tell people what the Riveter is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I'd been a lawyer for a decade. I was a litigator, a special kind of lawyer, the kind that fights Shocker. Yeah, you were training. You were training your whole life for Jeff Bezos, oh yeah, but I loved parts of it and I hated parts of it, to be honest. Like I hated, like the bullshit of lawyering. That is like we are just going to stand here and fight over dumb things and not try to reach a resolution. So I hated the part of lawyering that was like we're just going to stand here and fight instead of actually try to come to a resolution. I was like what are we doing? This is dumb, it's a game for the game's sake and it's not helping anybody, including our clients.
Speaker 3:And then, second to that, the big shift in my life is that I became a mom. So I have four little girls who are now 10, eight, seven and five. I had them all very close together, but I became a mom and I really started to think differently about time. And as a litigator, litigation is client services, so you're just beholden to your client what they need when they need it. And litigation is often like people's worst moments, worst years, and it's very unpredictable and I found myself not seeing my first daughter, not seeing her a lot because of my schedule, and I didn't want that.
Speaker 3:But I'm ambitious and I wanted to work. I need to work. It's like in my bones. I've worked since I was 14. Um, so I, you know, I was like what should I? What shall I do?
Speaker 3:So my first step was to leave a big law firm and go in house, and I went and worked for a cell phone company, which is like a great company. But my first day at the cell phone company I was like now I'm a cell phone lawyer. Just no, that's not for me. Like I was like this isn't, I can't know, it's just like this. I felt like I was an office space to be honest with you, and so I was just like this isn't going to work for me. And so I was like, well then, maybe I'll become a trust and estate lawyer or something I could do on my own, because I do think you know, and now I'm massively passionate about this but like, the most control you can have in your life is knowing how to make money on your own outside of corporate America. Hold on, let's do a little clap for that, I mean.
Speaker 3:But it is like it's true, everyone's like it's so much safer to work for someone else. It is not. It is not. It is not safe to work for someone else. And also like when you're working for someone else, you're making money for someone else. Oftentimes you're making them a lot of money, right, and you're not getting a lot of it, and so you know all the things. But anyway, I was not very creative at this moment in time and I was like maybe I'll do trust in estates or family law on my own, set my own hours, because that was kind of my driving force at the moment. So, because I'm very type A, I was like well, I can't just do it, I have to like go take classes on how to do it. So I started going to classes on like how to write a business plan, how to like steps to do to start a business, and this was in Seattle in 2016. And all of the classes in Seattle that weren't like out of college were at WeWork spaces. Wework are co-working spaces, if you don't know them, like in Columbus, like Cohatch, and they were at WeWork locations, which were these big co-working spaces with foosball, ping pong, beer and full of men Like I was in these classes and they were all bros, tech bros were in Seattle and I'd been reading all these stats that women were starting businesses at five times the rate of men.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, well, where the hell are they? Like? Where are these women? And I was thinking about it and I was like, well, what if I just like built that, but for women? Right, because if women are starting a lot of businesses and they're not coming here to learn about it, where are they going? Maybe there's not a place. So I thought they would build like a lifestyle business where I built one single clubhouse for co-working and events and learning for women in Seattle.
Speaker 3:And at that point I had two kids, I had two girls. So I had this idea. I entered a business pitch competition and I bring that up because, carrie, if you want to start a business, you need to do something that will light a fire under your ass and make you move. And if I had not entered this like tiny business pitch competition, I never would have quit my job. But it made me like I entered it and I was like, ok, I have to have a business plan, I have to have a 90 second elevator pitch, I have to have a financial model. So I did the things and I won. I won $10,000, which was amazing for the business and then, two weeks later, I had the courage to quit my job. And then, two weeks later, I found out I was pregnant with my third daughter. Because it turns out if you can't get pregnant while you're breastfeeding one child, you can get pregnant while you're breastfeeding another child Unbelievable.
Speaker 3:Unbelievable. But then you know between that and you know I but right as I was quitting my job and starting the Riveter, this lifestyle business, and I named after Rosie the Riveter- Do you know Rosie the Riveter?
Speaker 1:So?
Speaker 3:if you don't. Rosie the Riveter is kind of the woman. You see her in posters, you have your whole life where she's giving you the strong arm and she's an icon from World War Two and during World War II. Men went to fight the wars in the Pacific and in Europe and women were here. But we needed to build the machines of war. We built the tanks, we built the planes and for the first time in American history, like, women went into the full-time workforce. We had fully federally subsidized childcare. It's amazing they could do it under the Lanham Act. It's like the biggest secret in America and then they took it away after the war. But Rosie the Riveter is this icon of that moment in time. So I named it the Riveter for that, and very quickly.
Speaker 3:You know, I was talking to a friend of mine who was a lawyer and I told him about my idea and what I was doing and he was like wait a second, you know how to raise money. You've raised money from politicians. He's like why wouldn't you build 100 of these things instead of one? Like build a big business? And I was like, well, I don't have an MBA. He's like you don't need an MBA. He's like you go raise venture capital. And I was like, what is venture capital? I mean, this is where I was in the world. But then, of course, he started me thinking and I'm a competitive person and I want to succeed. And I was like, well, this is a challenge.
Speaker 3:And I was talking to my husband about it. Like we have two kids under three, I'm pregnant. And I go to my husband and I'm like, so what about this, carl? What if, instead of building like a part time lifestyle business, I build a massive nationwide business? And my husband just looks at me and he's like, if you're asking me this, you've decided already, so it doesn't really matter what I think he goes.
Speaker 3:But second, he's like, if you're going to take the bat, swing it as hard as you can, which is amazing. And so I took the bat and I started swinging and in two and a half years I raised $30 million from venture capitalists across the country. From venture capitalists across the country. I built 10 co-working and community spaces in six states. I had a staff of about 140. We were featured everywhere, from the New York Times to the Today Show, and we started working with brands like Amazon and Microsoft and Alaska Airlines, and we had people in the space from Joe Biden to Jane Fonda and Abby Wambach and Robin Roberts, and we built a really big business.
Speaker 2:Let's go back for a minute when you said, well, I don't have an MBA, so it's funny and like how you had to enter that, that pinch, that pitch competition. It's like we have it's in. We underestimate ourselves so much, even someone with the pedigree that you know you're an attorney and you have experience in life. But there's always this like intangible permission or thing that we're waiting to get or that we don't feel like we have, and I always say ask for forgiveness later. Yes, it's always in corporate America. Someone said that to me and I was like, oh my god, that's the smart. Like never ask for permission, ask for forgiveness later, because if you're always asking, who are you asking? Like, are the mba police in charge? But here's the thing, like it's when you don't have your mba, though, it's like this self-talk is like what is the mba police that the popo are gonna come, come and be like pardon me, ma'am, you don't have your MBA, so you're not, but that's how we feel.
Speaker 3:Oh, I know it.
Speaker 2:How am I qualified?
Speaker 3:Yeah, little old me. Well, I mean it goes back to like I read the statistics statistic once, that men will apply for a job if they meet 50% of the listed criteria. Women will apply if they meet 100%.
Speaker 3:Right and I think there is no one who is in charge of starting a business, like there's no entrepreneur police. Anybody can do it at any time. And I think the other thing and I think maybe this is what was stopping me to what if I fail? Well, if you fail, you get to start another business, or a third one, or a fourth one, and I think there's a sense, and maybe I don't know if it's more for women, because there are far fewer women who've, like, raised lots of venture capital. Um, but like you feel, like if you fail, like you're done, that was your one shot You're kicked off the stage of life. Like that's bullshit.
Speaker 2:You get to try over and, over and over again yeah, I just think whoever started saying failures and just think of it as an experiment, like I know, like I, this is what I would tell anyone you're going to fail, of course, right so like I at some point on some level, especially if you're reaching for this, you're swinging your bat for a grand slam.
Speaker 2:Expect failures yeah, all the time. But, like the worst thing in the world is to miss out on the doors. This is how I think about it and I've talked about this before on the show. But what drives me crazy would be the FOMO of missing out on the doors that will only open if you take that chance. Yeah, like there are doors.
Speaker 1:Like I want people to know that Like there are doors that are in the universe.
Speaker 2:Think of them as these doors that until you go and get off your ass and make that move and start, you can't get to those doors.
Speaker 3:You don't even know. The door exists.
Speaker 2:If you're not willing to like, go in search of it, but I'm here to tell you they're out there, yeah, and you can't get to them until so, for there, yeah, and you can't get to them until you. So for me, it's it's fear of missing out on those doors. Yeah. So to shift the mindset of like, oh, my god, what if I fail? It's like, no, no, you will of course, yeah, you will, but go and then give yourself the opportunity to get to the doors that are going to open, yeah I mean it's such good.
Speaker 3:It's such good advice, it's such good advice. I always think. I think about it now, and maybe this is because my girls are playing sports. But I'm like what if they were? Like I'm sorry, I can't try lacrosse as a seven-year-old because I might lose a game. Right, like, of course you're going to lose a game. Michael Jordan missed as many shots or more that he took than he made. Yeah, right, like you're going to fail, you're going to lose, you're going to miss, but if you aren't even trying, you don't get the chance to win.
Speaker 2:And so then COVID comes around and it knocks, it kind of takes you out of the knees.
Speaker 3:It was nuts, because our business model was like how many people can you squeeze into a building for as many hours a day? It was like COVID was the black swan for my business, and so we went from I would say like, and March 17th was like our D-Day, and I think at the time I was like very much in denial and I was like this is a short horizon event, we'll be back at work in two weeks. But I also, when I shut down the spaces because I had to shut down the spaces and we were in Seattle, so we were forced to shut down really immediately and for lots of reasons, we felt like we then had to shut down across the country Because, like, what if one of our employees got sick, and you know anyway? So we shut down immediately and then I, you know, said we can't charge our members because we're not able to provide them a service. So we stopped charging our members. We lost 90 percent of our revenue in 48 hours. Like we were on track to bring in 20 million dollars in revenue in our third year of business.
Speaker 3:I can't so, and and then it was gone, you know, and it I mean my immediate concern was that I was furloughing and then laying off a bunch of people, and that is a business owner. It's the worst. It's the worst and I can't make it about me, because these are the people that lost jobs. But you feel so responsible, so responsible, and that was just, and I did it. I got on every Zoom and did it and did all of the furloughing and all of the laying off because it was my company and I owed it to that, to everyone. Um, but that, yeah, that really sucked. You know it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but Riveter is still it's. It's online, Like you have like a whole. So so after this happens, then what?
Speaker 3:Well then, amazon, but with Riveter. So the Riveter shut down like March 17th. The FBI shows up April 2nd, so it was like our life just exploded into a million pieces in 14 days.
Speaker 2:So wait, can we take a minute for that though? Yeah, it's bad enough to have the FBI come to your house, but to have COVID looming, I mean, you're like wait a minute.
Speaker 3:Well, and then, like it was like I don't know, it was like living in an alternate universe because you had this happening. And then we had like then you think back to the summer of 2020, it's like COVID hits, then George Floyd was murdered and the country lights on fire. Seattle really lit on fire and, like my flagship Riveter was in what became known as the Capitol Hill, occupied, I don't know chop or yeah, like the occupied precinct or something, and so, like the police literally abandoned the area. So it's like a lawless area where my, my flagship location is. And then we had wildfires in Seattle, so it was raining ash and I was like this is the end of times. And I will say this is the end of times and I will say and I think this is important because I didn't start speaking publicly about Amazon and the Riveter didn't really make a strong comeback for a number of years and everyone's like you're so strong, you're so brave.
Speaker 3:I fell the fuck apart, like at the beginning of this. I mean, I could not stop shaking physically. I lost 20 pounds, my hair was falling out, like I had very real physical reaction. I was terrified. I now know that I was freezing, which is a biological response and often animals freeze because they're getting ready to fight, and that gave me a lot of hope when I learned that. But like I froze and I felt like a failure for freezing for my husband, for freezing for my kids. I had a baby, I had an eight-month-old, and so even in the most hopeful stories you hear of people surviving horrible things, there are very dark parts that you don't know the whole part about, and so like there's no weakness in the fact that people go and fall apart.
Speaker 2:And here's the thing like I don't care, you can put the strongest person in front of us who has been through the craziest things. Like everyone falls apart. Everybody falls apart and it's part of being human.
Speaker 2:And so when people do say like you know, you're so strong, you're, so brave you're so, yeah, it teaches you know you're so strong, you're so brave you're, so, yeah, it teaches you, you, you. You become conditioned, but you go through a shitload, yeah, you know. And no one's strong all the time, let's be honest. Yeah, kind of hating people are like you know, you're so strong, you're it's like no, you're forced to be.
Speaker 3:I know, I hate when people are like. And then people are like well, if anybody could survive it, you could. And I'm like, I don't want to fucking survive it anymore.
Speaker 2:You're like how about you go survive it?
Speaker 3:motherfucker, because you take it for a while. Go ahead now. I know, like I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 2:I'm done. But yeah, I mean, yeah, wrap the eight month old. I'm just trying to like place myself in your world at that time this stranger than fiction and I know someday I'll watch it.
Speaker 3:I'll watch it, I'll watch a movie or I'll watch a TV series and I'll be like what? Yeah, how did that happen?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so then how?
Speaker 3:how does Riveter then? How do you resuscitate it? So long journey, like I spent a year getting out of these leases, these 10 leases. And you know, when you have 10 big commercial leases and you're not bringing in revenue, like you think you're going to end up in bankruptcy. And so, like, project one was avoid bankruptcy, get out of the leases. And for that year that's all I thought about with the Riveter. Like we had we were doing some digital programmings, the business was running, but I wasn't like trying to build it Right. I was running with what we had, because we took our programming online and people would pay to attend that and brands would pay because we had a big audience of professional women. But I wasn't like, oh, what's our next iteration? What are we doing? It was like just get through this piece, and I think that's a helpful thing in business, whether you're growing or trying not to fail or wherever you are, is like take the piece that you can handle at that moment and do that part. You don't have to always be thinking of everything. So once we got out of the leases, I then actually left the company for a while and launched a brand for Hudson's Bay Company, which owns Saks. I needed to bring in some revenue for my family and Saks wanted to turn a bunch of dead retail into coworking. So I went to New York Monday through Thursday, away from my kids, and launched this company for them. That was then acquired by Convene, so that was a great. I mean, that was great for my family.
Speaker 3:And then I came back to the Riveter and I was like, okay, what are we here? Like, we have this, you know, we have this business. And at the time I, you know, I really sat down and I was like, literally, what do we have? Okay, we have this much money in the bank account, we have a newsletter with a hundred thousand subscribers, which we'd started right before the pandemic, thank God. Um, we have you know X number of social media followers and we have these brand relationships. That's what I have. What can I do with this? It's kind of like building a business in reverse.
Speaker 3:And so for a while I kind of flailed about. I was like, well, I'll send out the newsletter. And I was writing the newsletter and talking about what I wanted to talk about. We had a podcast, too, called what's Her Story, where we had on like Melinda Gates, like we had big guests. So we were doing that, selling ads against that, ads against the newspaper, and doing some digital events.
Speaker 3:And then, because I'm me, I was like I can't just do this, like I can't just like have this forever. I need to do something more with it. And so eventually I decided you know, I kind of I actually talked a lot to my audience Like why do you listen to me? Why are you subscribed to this newsletter? Like what are you coming here for? And done it. And because a lot of the women who came to speak at the Riveter had done it, I was like, well, I know how to do, I can teach people to do this.
Speaker 3:And realizing, in building a business where we now teach women how to get ready to pivot, whether they're going to do it 10 years from now or they're in the middle of it, I realized that I did have this very strong passion which I mentioned a while ago, with, like you need to learn to make money on your own. Because, trust me, of all people I understand, shit can happen Like unexpected things can happen, whether, like you don't have enough child care to go work in corporate America, or your partner gets cancer and you can't, or you get laid off or you're just like I don't want to do this anymore. I want to do my own thing. I think the future of work is working on your own. I think eventually we will unbundle from corporations, which I think will be a net positive.
Speaker 3:If, in America, we can figure out the benefits issue. Like it's so dumb that our health care is tied to jobs. Like I can't tell you how dumb that is. It's so dumb. But I now get to do something I love and I'm very passionate about, which is making sure that women build the skills and relationships that they can make money on their own when they need to or want to, and so we do that through courses, through expert guest discussions, um, and through content at the Riveter, and it's really fun. It's really fun. It's full-time, full-time job. It is full--time. I still do consulting on the side. I do legal consulting on the side, um, because we're still, you know, in the civil lawsuit with amazon and we have to pay lawyers, but I know but like you do what you got to do and I do think sure you're a hustler, you grind.
Speaker 3:I do also think that, like you know, when you learn to make money on your own, learning to do it in a bunch of different ways is also great and it really is.
Speaker 2:when you have that mindset, the challenge is, I mean, you know it gets real. Yeah.
Speaker 3:You do a bunch of different fun yeah.
Speaker 2:Weird, if you like that kind of fun.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I like it a lot more than I would going to a desk every day.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's what I can tell you, listen the freedom to be able to make your own schedule and not have to, you know, report to your boss all these things that I do not take for granted, being in corporate America for 15 years. There's so many little things that I'm like grateful for Riding along with your boss, really, yeah, come on in, come on in the car, let's get in the. Let's have some windshield time.
Speaker 3:I know, you know, like it's I know and it's just you know, and actually, like I come at this too from like being the boss of a company with 130 people and I, you know, I have so many thoughts and I'll probably get just I that I actually haven't even really shared. But like when people would say, like, bring your whole self to work. Like no, don't bring the part of you that works and go have a life right. Like just be here for as little time as you can to get your job done and then go live the life you're on this planet to live right. And if part of that life is building something, great, I love that. That's part of who you are.
Speaker 3:But like no, you shouldn't have to like go to forced social activities. You shouldn't have to pretend you give a shit about co-workers. They're not your family or your friends and they don't have to be if you don't want them to be. I like that and I also think that, like I don't know for women, I would always see women in offices. Like you know we talk about, women carry the mental load at home. They carry the goddamn mental load at work too. They're like, oh, you're not gonna get paid for this, but organize the holiday potluck. Oh, can you make sure the office kitchen is full?
Speaker 2:No one's layer of like no, yeah, so no, it's so true, it's so true. Okay, so what else?
Speaker 3:what's on the horizon Cause I know you're not. I mean so many, just other, you know I was like so yeah, cause.
Speaker 2:When we met for coffee, I was like, oh, this is not. This show is not going to be our last hurrah.
Speaker 1:I feel some collabs, oh yeah, some mind share some think tanks happening here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, let's do the corporate speak 100 tanks. We can double click on this right now.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm not trying to boil the ocean here, but uh, you know, or be the longest pole in the tent.
Speaker 3:Don't put that in the parking lot. Let's address it right now. I don't want that to be in the parking lot, I mean, I mean, that's the thing, like it's just, it's ridiculous, right? I mean?
Speaker 2:there are so many at&t acronyms and like and corporate speak and like that could actually be its own brand.
Speaker 3:Oh, I know Somebody could make a hilarious. No, I thought about that too. Tiktok about it.
Speaker 2:The branding of, like the whole business speak yeah.
Speaker 3:Here's what I think. I think it's a really interesting moment in time, both like within our world here in Columbus, ohio and across the country, and I think people are craving connection and experience, and so what I want to do is find ways to serve people with that you know, to.
Speaker 3:You know, I have the Riveter where I can help working women find that, find ways to make money on their own and come together, like because a huge, a huge part for me of building the Riveter and the reason I've been able to be so successful is I have the coolest friends and the best women who have opened doors for me. Like the idea that there's only room for one woman at the top is complete bullshit. The world I live in we're all like come up here, come up here right and just making connections, and so I want to help do that in this community here in Columbus for families, because I think a lot of families are isolated. We're just like go, go, go, go go.
Speaker 3:And so like how can we help bring?
Speaker 2:families together to do things that are just fun, and not your club sports team that you're traveling for in this very specific box, right like there's very specific things that cost so much money and you're going to hotel it's. That's a whole nother topic. I just don't get so much time.
Speaker 3:It's crazy, right like I'm sorry. Most of our children are not going to be pro sports players, no, and so their childhood should include things other than sports.
Speaker 2:Yes, and like the competitive thing, and then some of you living your lives vicariously, I mean I just I can't with it all. Like let's just diversify. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's not cool or it's not helpful. It teaches them teamwork and camaraderie and I think it's a positive thing within reason. But it's not the only thing. I know. Like, when I hear about these families, they're constantly somewhere every single weekend. All the time I just think to myself like I really don't want to do, like I'll do it for dane if I have to, but like is there any other options?
Speaker 3:it's hard, it's really hard it's hard out there, it's really hard, yeah, it's really hard. It is hard out there in the streets. But doing that and then like continuing to tell stories, I think storytelling, like we are all storytellers, we crave stories, and whether we're living them out loud or helping people tell their stories, I think it's really important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreed. Did you always want four kids?
Speaker 3:So I grew up with one sister here in Columbus and she's my best friend, but we have a very big Catholic family and so I grew up around like the chaos and commotion of a big family. So, yeah, I wanted more than two kids, um, because I wanted to be part of a bigger family, like within my own home Does that make sense.
Speaker 2:Um, but I thought three and then I had four, but then, once you have that fourth, is it really that big of a deal Like? Once you once you already have three, is it? I mean, I just, I don't know, you haven't met my fourth child. No, I mean, I'm just asking ignorantly.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, I would say, like my husband always says and he's right because we had off in our face, like you got to go to brunch and now you're never going to brunch again. You know, like you don't sleep anymore those things, and we had them so fast. I don't really know the difference between one, two, three and four, because we had them in under five years, but my fourth child is just like we call her the punch you in your face child, because she has as much work as the other three combined. She's amazing, like she's here for a reason. I can't wait to see what it is. I think she's like John Connor from Terminator. She's basically going to save the world. She's wild, she's wild. Yeah, I will say having four little kids was easier than having four talking bananas, kids with lots of activities. Yeah, I mean the amount of times I hear mommy. In a day it's like 722. And you're like I love you so much, but like I'm mommied out no, I'm just like stop, are you patient?
Speaker 3:I mean I am until the moment I'm not, which is my problem. Like I'm very patient until I'm like, okay, I'm flooded. This has to stop immediately. Yeah, but I'm pretty patient, is Carl?
Speaker 2:like is he balanced or is he like loses cool, or what's the?
Speaker 3:like something he's. He's very calm and collected, until the moment he isn't carl and I. The problem with my husband and I is like we're very much alike. Yeah, like you have like two alpha, like two alpha people, two entrepreneurs. It's a mess like.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? No, for sure. And then him having all females. Oh yeah, he loves that.
Speaker 3:I bet you that's great though. Well, he's like. My husband is a 6'4" Minnesota ice hockey player, hunter, you know like all the things. But when we were dating he said to me he's like, if we ever get married and have kids, I swear we will have all girls.
Speaker 1:He's like.
Speaker 3:I just like why, and people are like well, so, so you could go hunting and fishing. He's like I take my daughters.
Speaker 2:I was going to say I can hunt and fish with my girls. That's such a stereotype, isn't it? It is, it's so bad, such BS. Okay, closing advice for anybody out there who wants to start something, just anything that first comes to your brain.
Speaker 3:So the inspirational advice to anybody that wants to start a business is just do it. Like there's not going to be a right time, no one needs to give you permission, just do it, try it, see what happens. If you can't quit your full-time job, try it on the side, the very like tactical advice. That's not so inspirational, but I think this gave me a lot of peace, and people don't talk about this a lot.
Speaker 3:When I did quit my job to start the Riveter, my husband and I made a spreadsheet and we were like, how long can we go living the life we have today and paying for childcare without Amy bringing in any salary? And we had 19 months. And I liked it because it gave me a target and I like targets. But it also gave me a peace of mind of like, okay, I have a minute to try this and I like targets, yep. But it also gave me a peace of mind of like, okay, I have a minute to try this and I replaced my salary within 14 months entirely as a lawyer. But like, just, you know, like, give yourself some goalposts, but just do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got to set some goals. Yeah, that's right. Well, I have a feeling I'll be seeing you again sometime soon. Yeah, very soon, we will. No, seriously, you're incredible on a lot of different levels. I'm glad we got to sort of you know, delve into the more 360 around you and who you are as a person, because I mean it's, there's so much here that's just that people can benefit from, and the Riveter. So it's at Riveter, what's what can tell people?
Speaker 3:how they can find you. You can find us at our website at the Riveterco or on all of the social platforms at theriveterco, and then you can find me at Amy underscore K underscore Nelson.
Speaker 2:Which I'll be tagging the hell out of all those things. All right, thank you so much. Thank you, carrie, and if you're still out there following your girl, follow me on YouTube, spotify, apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, keep moving, baby. That's awesome. You're so easy to talk to. You're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're you.
