The Keri Croft Show
The Keri Croft Show
OBGYN Dr. Shepherd on Egg Donation, Surrogacy & What Really Makes You a Parent
What happens when your doctor becomes your fiercest advocate — and ultimately, your friend?
In this episode, I sit down with my own OB/GYN, Dr. Kimberly Shepherd — a true BADASS woman who has single handily helped so many women like me along their infertility and pregnancy journeys.
I open up publicly about choosing egg donation — a topic that still feels taboo for so many. Dr. Shepherd and I get real about what it means to build a family outside the “traditional” mold, and why love — not biology — is what defines parenthood.
We cover everything from:
🧡 Egg donation, IVF, and surrogacy
🧡 Navigating infertility as a same-sex couple or single parent
🧡 Talking to your kids about how they came to be
🧡 And yes… we even get into the "juicy" OB/GYN questions no one wants to ask (but everyone needs answers to)
Whether you’re starting your own fertility journey, supporting someone who is, or just want to understand the many incredible ways families come to be — this episode is for you!
🎙️ Listen and share with someone who needs to hear:
#TheKeriCroftShow #InfertilitySeries #InfertilityAwarenessMonth #EggDonation #SurrogacyJourney #LGBTQFamily #ModernParenthood #DrKimberlyShepherd #FamilyIsLove #YouAreNotAlone #SayTheThing #1in6 #AssistedReproduction #IVFSupport
Welcome back to the Keri Croft Show and to the next episode in our infertility series. Today I'm bringing you a conversation that feels really special. I'm sitting down with my OBGYN, dr Shepard, the woman who's been by my side through my entire infertility journey. But here's the thing she's not just my doctor, she's an advocate in every sense of the word, and over the years she's become a true friend of mine. We've been through a lot together and I couldn't have asked for a better person to walk this road with. If you've been following this series, you know it's all about opening up the conversation around infertility, because sharing these stories it matters. It helps people feel seen, heard and a little less alone. If this resonates with you, or if you know someone who could use this message, I'd love for you to share it. Rate the show, leave a review, send it to a friend. All right, let's dive in. Here's my conversation with the one and only Dr Shepard. Facing challenges, conceiving Experience, compassionate care from leading fertility experts at Pinnacle Fertility Ohio, your dedicated navigator is a call or text away. Thank you.
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Speaker 2:Don't say I've never done anything for you. I watched uh gwyneth's today like her part of your episode and I, um I started crying, like when she talked about um, that she'd never have the ever get to feel a child girl and she broke down. It made me cry.
Speaker 1:I was like, oh, you that moment when I asked her about the grief of not you know, and when she stopped, she stopped for so long, like. So I was like I wasn't sure, like in the editing process, the only reason why I shortened it, cause I felt like I wanted to keep it in, but I shortened it because, um, you couldn't really see it on the audience, so we ended up shortening it, but we sat here in silence for probably you know, a good half a minute and it was just like you know, you just felt it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And God, she's so great, she's amazing.
Speaker 2:And she's so you know she really walks the walk. You know, like she's gone above and beyond for so many patients and shown up on weekends and things that are not in her job description just to help people create families. Yeah, you know, and she does. She's just she never says no, no, especially when it involves fertility.
Speaker 1:I love your shirt. Thank you, and you're right, difficult roads can lead to beautiful things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's funny because when I saw it it reminded me of like, like I've alwayslance of understanding, you know, and I always feel that with loss. You know, like when people go through an early you know pregnancy loss, I'm like when you're holding that next baby in your arms and you know, had you not gone through this hardship, you wouldn't have that miracle. You know, it doesn't take that loss away, it doesn't take that grief away, but it helps maybe give some peace to it in a certain way. And I think we can apply that to you know, I think I've applied it personally to many things in my own, you know, life.
Speaker 1:I sat down today and did my own like.
Speaker 3:I'm.
Speaker 1:Carrie and I talked about for the first time, like our choice to what we did with Angel and choosing to deliver her the egg donor. I've never I've not talked about any of this publicly ever, you know, and so, um, people who know in my life know I was just very private about, as you know, um, but there's no one who's been through my whole story except for Brady, other than you. I mean, you've been there for everything you know and like the, the idea of um, the pro-choice angle.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And so when you and I were sitting down to talk about that and how important it is and I and I never had said anything about my own personal journey yet Um, but having the ability, when you are faced with that incredibly, are faced with that incredibly, I mean I will never forget being in that room.
Speaker 1:My mom was there, Brady was there, I was wearing a pink tank top and we were all just like you know, I was jumping up and down and we were all just I mean, we're going to find out the gender of the baby. Right, and kudos to you as well. I mean, I know this is your job and like you do it so beautifully, but how you can be in moments like that with people and like on a dime, you see it first. I'll never forget just like watching your face and your eyes are like ice blue and I'm always like enamored how beautiful they are and I'm watching you, watching the screen, and it was like she's trying to figure out how to say it and she's still trying to convince herself that something's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's one of those things I think, when you, when you see that you don't, you want to make sure you're right. You know, and there are times where you're like I don't know exactly what's wrong. But something's wrong you know and I have to tell you that you know and we're going to figure out what it is. But this isn't typical, you know, and it's, I think, the blessing of you know doing it. So much is that you kind of know what's normal, that when you see something, even when it's clearly, you can't quite figure out what the abnormal is. You know it's not normal and then it's figuring it out. It's figuring out the what and the why as much as we can, I think.
Speaker 1:And you have touched so many vaginas, as we all know, and so many of these women who have sat in the chair that you're in you're their OBGYN and you know they all say the same thing and I know you get uncomfortable when I say that you're basically an angel on earth. But you know all these different stories and like Melissa who's going to be like at the end of the program, but when you have someone like that who all of a sudden gets spontaneously pregnant in their mid four, you know, you see everything, you see it all Right, you do, you know, and like it's just the most um, I'm very, very excited. I guess that's the word about bringing all these stories out because there's all these common, there's all these common themes, you know, and one thing that a lot of women say is they feel like they've failed.
Speaker 1:You know they feel less than they feel like their bodies are betraying them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I mean, I guess I look at it so differently. I guess I just feel like there's no failure in creating a family, no matter what that looks like, right. And so for some people that's the traditional route, for some people that's the traditional route, for some people that's a completely non-traditional route. And I've been thinking, just knowing that we're coming here, just thinking about how many different ways can you create a family. And I started kind of going through the list and I'm like, well, you can do it the traditional way.
Speaker 2:You can do adoption, you can do man, we can use medication, we can do inseminations. We can do inseminations with your partner's sperm. We can do it with the donor's sperm. We can do, you know, ivf. We can do IVF with your partner's sperm and your egg. We can do it with somebody else's egg and your partner's sperm. And you can do it with your egg and somebody else's sperm. And you can do it with somebody else's egg and somebody else's sperm. And you start to go through it and you're like we have a lot of options, you know, I mean. So I hope that's one of the the messages I try to give people when they come in and they're frustrated that they can't get pregnant. I'm like, if you want a family, you're gonna have a family. I can't tell you today, looking at you, what that journey is going to look like or what we're going to need to do to make that happen, but we can make that happen and I think that that hope is so important for people.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm a testament to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know it's. That doesn't mean that that journey isn't wrought with frustration sometimes too. You know, you definitely see on people's faces sort of that sense of despair and that sense of like do we give up, you know? Or what's my, what's my threshold? You know I'll do up to X and then I'm not going to do it, or the different things that people are comfortable with. But you know, I really I've always encouraged people just don't, don't quit.
Speaker 1:Now that I'm talking about the egg donor, I do think it's so important, though, you know, to make sure that, no matter what because there are so many options, you know, and technology is an amazing thing, but I think that a woman's innate desire to have a child, you know, it can take over everything, and so if you're that sort of woman of action and you're like I'm going to like, plow through this thing and I'm going to make it happen, no matter what, before you think everything through, like I had a lot of time, a lot of time to think through all of the different options, you know, but I think, on behalf of, like your future child and they're going to be adults, and like their story is important and it's important, everybody feels like this was the right choice and we were all aligned, you know. I think that's all very important too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and I. But I also think it's, you know, I think people, I think people a lot of times don't even realize sort of the options that are available. Right, and you know, I think sometimes people are like, well, if I can't be with my egg, you know, then is it any different than adoption? And I'm like, well, you know, I mean in some ways yes, in some ways no option. And I'm like, well, you know, I mean in some ways yes, in some ways no.
Speaker 2:But I think for a lot of people, you know, that connection that you get to growing a child is pretty powerful. Right On the flip side, I have a lot of patients who, you know, their children are genetically theirs but they've used a gestational carrier that makes them no less their child because they didn't grow them, you know. So I think there's it's. I just don't ever believe that raising, that being a parent, is sort of the genetics or what womb they grew in. Right, it's all about how do you love this human being, how do you take care of them, how do you have that, you know, that sense of just, when you have that sense that this is the most powerful thing in my life and I don't want to ever lose this.
Speaker 1:That's being a parent right, oh, it totally is. And I will say, you know, I have, um, like it or not, a lot of experience with some of this stuff and I will tell you, like losing Jade, there was never a moment when I was in that room with her where I was like, oh well, she's not biologically connect. I mean there was never a moment that the love for her I mean I've lost one that was biologically mine and I've lost two that weren't and the pain and the hurt, it wasn't different. And so I can you know, and like having you know Dane and Kyle now, and knowing the love and how much, I just know that the universe and I made it happen, right, I know that, but like the universe was so much. I just know that the universe and I made it happen, right, I know that, but like the universe was so much a part of that. So I know how much you can love.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a fear for people, rightfully so, because it's just not this, it's not this mainstream thing. It's scary, it's weird, it's not the way you grew up with your little children's books and you get married, you have kids, you know it's, it's off the beaten path, but I think to your point. It's important that people A know their options Should they choose to have, you know, go that route and have access to options. You know, look at Gwenna, for example. She didn't even consider surrogacy, like she says it in her interview. She's like I didn't even think that was for me, like I, I just figured that was for people like Kim Kardashian, right, you know. So it is important that people know, right, that you do have choices, whether you choose those routes or not.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the same is true. You know, when women are, you know, single and they want to have a family. You know a lot of people don't even think about the option of donor sperm. And I'm, you know I have that conversation when women come in and you know they talk about their frustrations of not finding you know, mr Right, and you know wanting to have a family, and I'll say, have you ever thought about doing it on your own? You know, because it's an important conversation to have and people just don't think about it Like you think. Oh yeah, I've got to find the person and then have the baby, but it doesn't have to be in that order and sometimes it's better because you're not compromising, right.
Speaker 1:Sunday and this girl comes up to me and she's like do you remember me? I'm like I recognize your face and I worked with her for a really long time back in college and she'd been listening to the show and she's all about this infertility series and she's like I've decided to do it on my own and I'm like good for you. And you could tell her trepidation. Of course you're nervous, Of course you're scared, but I mean, I feel like that's so empowering that you do have that option. Right, you know, and if you have a support system, Right.
Speaker 2:Well there's a lot of single moms out there that are doing it.
Speaker 1:Well, right yeah.
Speaker 2:By choice or otherwise you know, but it's part of the conversation that should be had. I mean people need to know what choices are available. You know that should be had. I mean people need to know what choices are available. You know and I think people don't realize that there's embryos that need, you know, to be adopted, that there's people that are willing to donate eggs. You know you hear about sperm donors. You don't hear as much about egg donors. People need to know that those are options and we have a lot of patients that do it.
Speaker 2:But to your point, you know, I do think that, especially in this day and age, it's unlikely that it's going to stay a secret, you know. So if you go into it with the notion that you're not going to tell anybody, your kids are never going to know, it's not probably realistic because there's too many 23andMes and there's too many things, and so it's an important part, I think, of the psychology behind all of this. Whether it's adoption, whether it's, you know, using donor eggs, using donor sperms, is to have that conversation of like. You know it's a. This isn't. No child is ever going to regret being born, you know, and the story can be a really wonderful one. Don't be afraid to share it you know, and and and tell them it's part of their. You know who they are.
Speaker 1:It goes back to what I said a little bit earlier about being really ready and really aligned with your decision, and I am, you know. Again, I stay in my lane because this is my, my way that I do it. I don't want to just because I've experienced. I don't want to throw my opinions heavily on other people, but I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't understand the idea of secrecy around it to your children, right? I think that, no matter what it is in life, the minute that your child finds out something that you're not being forthcoming, it takes a really long time to recover from that and something is all it's their identity and I think it creates this notion of shame around it. And, like I would always want Dane and Kyle to know like we fought so hard for you, like I am so excited about, are they going to have identity crises Most kids do excited about? Are they going to have identity crises Most kids do? Is this going to be a part of it? Maybe, but all I can do and all Brady can do, is be real steadfast and confident and aligned in the decision and to make them feel proud and that you are unique and you were really, really wanted. I mean, like my God, how can you finally look at that story Like, let's say, when they're over their teenage angst and look back on that and go, wow, right, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's fear, right, it's fear that drives that decision. So it's the fear of doing it because you feel like you're not going to be connected to the child. It's the same fear of feeling like your child's not going to be connected to you. But that's not true. But I think to your point. I think if you wait too long, then it's that feeling of deception, especially if you wait until they're teenagers or they find out as adults. So I think, especially in this day and age, it used to be that you could do closed adoptions or you could do things and the likelihood of somebody finding out is really low. But you can't, you're not going to be able to do that. So it is, it has to be, I think, part of the discussion you know that people have to have whenever they're feeling, when they've tried to figure out what they're comfortable with. You know, doing it, what, what's that threshold in which they can, they can go to?
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Speaker 1:Who says you need a special occasion to feel like a celeb. I mean, stress is real, life is busy and your scalp, yeah, it deserves some love too. That's where Headspace by Mia Santiago comes in. Treat yourself or someone who deserves it to a luxurious scalp treatment and a killer blowout or cut, because nothing says main character, energy, honey like a fresh style from celebrity stylist Mia and her team. And because we love a good deal, mention the Keri Croft show and get 20% off your service or any gift card for somebody in your life that you love. Headspace by Mia Santiago because great hair days shouldn't be rare. I'm actually excited about the egg donor conversation because I know that it will help a lot of people and I hope people come to me the way they have for surrogacy. I mean, it's like a floodgate and it's been really great and the questions are all valid and they're all so. Everyone is so vulnerable and really trying to make the right calls and nervous and they don't really know, like, how to handle it and my advice would always be transparency, right.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:I think with me any, I mean anything, you know, but like that's just a who wants to carry that weight around, right?
Speaker 2:Right, for sure, for sure. But, yeah, I love what you're doing. You know, I think it's so important just to, for lack of a better word, normalize all of this, you know, to make it part of the conversation, to make it part of the discussion that you know, it's okay if it's not traditional you know, oh no, I mean, and look at all the same sex couples, I mean it's like this isn't going away.
Speaker 1:Everyone deserves. Everyone deserves equal right to have a family. And Jess is one of the oh my gosh, she is a firecracker. And she came in and was talking about her and her wife and she was saying you know, can for the love of God, people stop imposing for lesbians to adopt? She's like you adopt. She's like no disrespect, but like just because we're lesbians doesn't mean we have to adopt. So there are so many different couples and ways.
Speaker 2:And like well, the same is true for for male couples.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:I mean I've had really interesting situations over the years. I mean I've had patients that were surrogates, you know, for male gay couples, and I've had one that was the egg donor and the surrogate. And then you know, one pregnancy they used one sperm and then the other pregnancy they used another. I've had situations where they take both the sperm, they put it both in and they just see what happens. So I mean it's great, it's fun. This is what it's supposed to be about. It's all about, kind of, you know, this creation of families.
Speaker 2:That's an exciting thing, you process is hard, the process can be sad, but the outcomes are miraculous, no matter how they happen, and so that's the fun part. That's the fun part of what I get to do is help people kind of get through that hardship to get to that other side of the bridge you know and have the joy I just had.
Speaker 1:Skye and Jason in oh good, and that was really great. I hadn't seen them for a while.
Speaker 2:They're such great people.
Speaker 1:They were just so great. I'll never forget being in the delivery room with all of you. Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sure it's a little out of body.
Speaker 1:It was very out of body. Yeah, it was very out of body. I couldn't quite believe that we were there.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I think it's all very surreal, you know. But on the flip side, I can see that how surreal it would be like for you being there and watching your baby being born from somebody else. But I mean, I know, when I had my children and I was laying there having my C-sections, it felt very surreal too, you know, and I'm like I remember looking at him for the first time and being like, hmm, that's mine, huh. So I don't know, I don't know if that's just a process of. So I don't know, I don't know if that's just a process of you know the different ways in which we do it or if it's just part of parenthood.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's probably both. Yeah, I'm just so glad I had you with me for everything oh well, I'm so glad that you let me be part of your whole journey.
Speaker 2:You know I feel very blessed. I mean, can you believe we're old hags sitting here? It's for yourself blessed. I mean, can you believe we're old hags sitting here?
Speaker 1:I remember when I first met you. I remember the first time that we were in the um, you were selling a car or something and you were like you want to buy a car? I car. I'm like no, but you can look at my vagina and I think I love you that is awesome we were babies, like I know.
Speaker 1:I feel like it was 2002, yeah, yeah, and here we are and you're still looking at my crusty old vagina. This thing's holding up. You know what, speaking of crusty old vaginas vaginas do they get dry when you're going through menopause? Mine has not, but I've talked to a couple of friends and I mean this yeah, they do yeah interesting you lose the lubrication forever, but we have ways to make that better but they can't do so. Will estrogen like make your vagina like juicy again? Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, do not suffer with a dry vagina Asking for a friend. Come in, let's fix it.
Speaker 1:It actually really is not me, which no one's going to believe that now and there's non-hormonal ways that can help too. I got the vagina questions coming here Popping.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I can't wait.
Speaker 1:Dry vagina in here popping. Oh my god, I can't wait. Dry vagina, you've come to the right place.
Speaker 2:Vagina feeling like sandpaper yes, do not suffer you know, women do not, should not suffer well, I think there are options.
Speaker 1:Maybe we I think we're good at hormonal replacement therapy is okay for most people and actually beneficial.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think I mean this is. I could go, I could talk about this for hours. I mean, I think that there is so many benefits to hormone replacement therapy and I think you should all women should have a discussion with their doctors about it. I think it has to be individualized, and figuring out the right approach and the right things for an individual woman is really important. I think that there's the pendulum always swings right. The Women's Health Initiative study, when it came out, the pendulum went way over here, right over here right Now, in part because of social media and the fact that it's such a profitable industry.
Speaker 2:You know, everybody's looking for the fountain of youth and everybody is looking to just have a magic wand to make them 25 again. You know, now the pendulum has shifted way to this other side, right, and I think we're going to eventually kind of find I hope that we find this middle ground. But I think that there's a, you know, this menopausal age. We're all struggling a little bit, and so there's this.
Speaker 2:My fear is that people are being taken advantage of a little bit. You know that there's. I mean, I think I read that there's something like the beauty industry is something like a $520 billion industry or something like that, and you know this is getting wrapped up in that a little bit and you know this is getting wrapped up in that a little bit. And I see a lot of things happening or being done by places that should not be doing it. And people come to me because they're having complications and I just wish that people could feel comfortable or feel like their doctors were going to listen to them and be open to having the conversation with them so it can be done in practice in a good way, right In a medically safe way, in a way that's really not just throwing things at them. You know that may or may not work.
Speaker 1:Okay, so we've got some questions for you, okay, and you need to answer them with one sentence or less. Okay, okay, and you can say pass if you would like. Okay, we understand that you're a classy woman and that we're not a classy show, so sometimes we take things to a level that you may not really want to be a part of. Okay Spitting. Have you seen a vajazzled vagina Like I didn't even know this existed? Yes, I have. How did you react?
Speaker 2:I think I asked what's going on down here, and there was beads.
Speaker 1:They were like little, almost like rhinestone stickers that were stuck to the vulva. Okay, yeah, did you. Was it a good look like? Were you, were you like?
Speaker 2:thinking that was a good look. I I just kept thinking that wouldn't that be uncomfortable?
Speaker 1:is it possible to be permanently stretched out, or is that just propaganda from guys with small penises?
Speaker 2:I mean, there are women who undergo some birth trauma, where things might change.
Speaker 1:I kind of asked you this before, but literally, have you ever judged someone's vaginal haircut or lack thereof internally? Yes, can my vagina actually fall asleep if I sit on a spin bike too long?
Speaker 2:or should I stop googling things at 2 am? Well, it can get numb from nerve compression.
Speaker 1:Do you secretly know when someone lied about their last period date? No.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Are you at liberty to say what it was.
Speaker 2:I have taken multiple objects out of the vaginas.
Speaker 1:What was?
Speaker 2:the most wild object, a polished stone, benoit balls. I guess that's not that unusual, but just that they couldn't get out um the stone was unexpected, though can my vibrator really desensitize me or is this just bullshit?
Speaker 1:my partner heard on tiktok it will not desensitize you if sex sends me into labor, do you think my husband deserves credit or punishment?
Speaker 2:It's not going to put you into labor. If he has a big, swinging, big swinging cock, it might make you contract, but it's not going to put you into labor.
Speaker 1:If I pass gas during my exam, do you ignore it? Or have you ever acknowledged it and laughed?
Speaker 2:I would ignore it.
Speaker 1:If I crave dirt or laundry soap during pregnancy, am I possessed or should I seek help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that might be a sign of iron deficiency.
Speaker 1:Is pregnancy brain a medical excuse to ignore people? I don't like.
Speaker 2:It's a real thing. Pregnancy brain is a real thing.
Speaker 1:yeah well so isn't menopause brain too? That's some brain fog yeah, yeah. What's the guy's excuse for their brain fog? Manopause what hey you should? You should trademark that? Does it ever not get weird when someone duties during labor? Or are you just so used to it?
Speaker 2:No, it's not weird. I just try to make it so that they don't know.
Speaker 1:They just don't know.
Speaker 2:Well, I hope, because I just want people to focus on that. It happens. It just means they're a good pushing. Did that happen to me? It was good pushing Do you remember, and if it did, I wouldn't tell you.
Speaker 1:I'm sure it was the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. Have you ever thought, oh God, not this vagina again when a patient arrives? No, so, dr Shepard, anything any like words of wisdom, something you would say to somebody in exam room, or something you know, just to kind of for people who are embarking on this journey or who have been in it for a little bit, like just from your own experience and perspective?
Speaker 2:In terms of fertility. Yeah, I would say one be patient with the process. You know, I think we spend most of our adult lives trying to avoid pregnancy. So there's this expectation that when you're ready, it's just going to happen, and that's rarely the case. I mean, some people are very lucky and that is, you know, their story. But even as a gynecologist, it took me over a year to get pregnant with my kids. You know, I knew what to do, but it just wasn't easy, right? So I think that you know that's that's the one thing that I I would tell people. And and not to give up, you know. So if you're struggling, don't wait two years and then come in and be like, well, it hasn't happened in two years. I guess it's not going to happen. That's what we're here for. You're here to try to figure out the whys and what do we do to make it better? How do we make it happen? So, hopefully, people have physicians that they trust and physicians that they can go to that will help them and guide them.
Speaker 1:Well, I love you. I love you too, and thanks for stopping in. Thanks for being a part of this series. I love you too, and thanks for stopping in. Thanks for being a part of this. Um, this series, I just I know it's. It's already been very impactful for people and the shares and the engagement it's just been incredible. So I really I'm confident and hopeful that it it lands in the laps of people who need it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know it's hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're still out there following your girl, follow me on YouTube, spotify, apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, make sure you're, you know, taking care of your stuff down there before you go see your OBGYN. And keep moving, baby. I mean, I love you. If you made it to the end of this episode, thank you. It means more than I can put into words. And remember, please tag me on Instagram, shoot me a DM, leave a comment, drop a review. I read every single message and your words remind me why this work matters. You can find more resources, ways to connect and everything I'm building over at kerrycroftcom. Thank you again for listening, thank you for holding space and thank you for being part of this conversation. And until next time, keep moving, baby.
