The Keri Croft Show
The Keri Croft Show
Joe Apgar on Male Infertility, Open Adoption & Why Sperm Banks Need a Makeover
Joe Apgar wasn’t thinking about infertility at 21.
He was just trying to survive cancer.
But years later — in the middle of dating, adulting, and trying to figure out what his future might look like — the reality hit: cancer hadn’t just changed his body… it had rewritten his path to parenthood.
In this episode, Joe shares what it’s like to navigate male infertility after cancer, and how the emotional weight of “undetectable sperm count” followed him into relationships, and self-worth.
Oh — and we also go all the way in on how awful the sperm bank experience is. From traumatizing vibes to beige waiting rooms and zero humanity, Joe and I dream up what it would look like if someone actually revolutionized the process.
This episode is honest, hilarious, and really got me in my feels. Joe’s story is a reminder that love, family, and healing don’t always show up how you thought they would… but when they do, it’s magic.
🎙️ Share this with a friend, a partner, or anyone who needs to feel less alone in their story.
#TheKeriCroftShow #InfertilitySeries #MaleInfertility #OpenAdoption #ParenthoodAfterCancer #InfertilityAwarenessMonth #1in6 #SayTheThing #SpermBankTraumaIsReal #YouAreNotAlone #DatingWithInfertility #AdoptionJourney #JoeApgar
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Joe Apgar:I know, and your new digs? I was in your house last time we did this, I know you're an OG.
Keri Croft:Not everyone can say they started from the bottom. They started in the house, the whole office. They started from the house.
Joe Apgar:Now we're here, I know, and you had a dog. I was worried the dog was going to come in. So yeah, this is an upgrade and you got Kate.
Keri Croft:And we're back, I know, can you believe it? So how are you feeling about my digs here?
Joe Apgar:I like them. Does it make you feel cool?
Keri Croft:Thank you.
Joe Apgar:A lot of colors, a lot of like gemstones, a lot of just neat stuff.
Keri Croft:Where's the art?
Joe Apgar:from. It looks like maybe it's from the same artist.
Keri Croft:Well, so there's a mishmash going on, but the three paintings there are from an artist, a local artist here. His name's Daniel Okay. And then these boxing gloves are a girl in Chicago. So I try to support local all the time, try to do like a quarterly installation.
Joe Apgar:This is fairly new.
Keri Croft:Okay, so I'm feeling it.
Joe Apgar:I like it. Yeah, I like it.
Keri Croft:So your world is wild, you are a CEO. Isn't that kind of make you feel like you know, like you're a CEO, it's kind of fucking cool right.
Joe Apgar:Um, yeah, it doesn't make me feel any sort of way. I mean it's I feel proud, just because of our organization and the impact our organization has.
Keri Croft:But yeah, but you're a ceo. You're like, I'm joe the ceo. I know it's fucking cool dude, it's uh, yeah, I mean it's fun.
Joe Apgar:It's it's a lot of pressure, it's a lot of fun it's. You know you get to engage with incredible people and you know, I think, get the opportunity to share my story and hear other people's stories on a daily, weekly basis and you know, it's inspiring. I get to do really inspiring work, get to meet. I've always been passionate about young people you know have gone through cancer and because I went through cancer when I was young and I think it's just fascinating to like see what people who've gone through something like that are doing with their lives and it's such a sort of crucial moment and I think I've never met someone at any age that had gone through cancer that it didn't inform the rest of their life in some way in a really positive way I can imagine.
Keri Croft:Yeah, and so we're here today to talk about infertility.
Joe Apgar:Yes.
Keri Croft:And it's funny how and I you know I've said this a million times, but I am a huge believer in energy and the universe and there is this whole intangible network that happens around all of us. And this is another example. I was doing this series and I thought of you because I'm like man Joe. He told his story, he's a male. It's so impactful. And then I kind of got busy and you DM'd me and said I need to see your new space.
Keri Croft:I wanted to see the new dicks and I was like, okay, but isn't that funny how all that works out, because it's like you probably saw that too and were like I'd love to you know subconsciously. And now here we are.
Joe Apgar:I know Well. I saw your Instagram story and thought yours was the first podcast. I think I had shared like that part of my cancer story at any real depth.
Joe Apgar:I think it was one of the first conversations on your podcast about that topic and just being a male and that topic this topic doesn't always get a male voice, and so I remember, like finishing that podcast and I went home and I was like, oh, that was a podcast and I was like I had a chance to talk about infertility for the first time, you know, on a real platform, and so it was cool yeah, and I'm so thankful that you are doing it again, because for the people who maybe didn't watch the first podcast with you, let's tell them a little bit about so.
Keri Croft:You're in college, you get diagnosed, and let's focus on sort of when you realized that you weren't going to be able to have kids biologically, kind of start with that.
Joe Apgar:Yeah. So it sort of started quick. So I was 21. It was my last semester of college I get diagnosed with testicular cancer. So I got diagnosed on a Friday night and I had surgery 12 hours later on a Saturday morning. A surgeon had come up from Washington DC and it was this really quick thing. And I think the thing I wish, looking back, was that I had gotten a second opinion and pressed pause and because I think things could have turned out, you know, differently and so you know what happens I had this first surgery and then I was in the hospital recovering for a few days, leave the hospital and I come back for a one week checkup of you know how's the sutures doing and the staples and all this stuff.
Joe Apgar:Doctor leaves and a nurse comes in and she says you know, have you thought about sperm banking? I said nope, never even heard that term before. 21 year old college kid. Like is the last thing I was thinking. And she said well, you know, with your type of cancer and the treatment, it's something you should sort of think about and read about. And so I just left it at that and so I was at Penn State.
Joe Apgar:So I was in State College, which is dead center Pennsylvania, made a few phone calls, did a little research online, talked to my parents and it was sort of just something we were like I guess we should do this, because it was suggested Like there wasn't really a, it was not a thoughtful conversation, like you should do this, and here's why it was like this thing's available if you want to do it, which I think is far too common. You know it's a very passive secondary thing. The primary things are cancer, right, which is understandable. The secondary thing is all the impacts of cancer, and fertility can certainly be one of them. And so I drove to Pittsburgh because that was the closest sort of reproductive sperm bank. I mean, if someone could reinvent the sperm bank experience, it would be incredible.
Joe Apgar:Because you walk in. First of all, you're 21, like this 21 year old college guy, right, I'm like probably in jeans and sneakers and wearing a Penn State t-shirt and I roll in and it's like beautiful young lady hands you a little cup, says it says walk three doors down on the left, walk in, come back when you're done. Like no instructions, no, like you know. They're like wash your hands.
Joe Apgar:I'm like oh okay, thanks. So you go in and it's like a sign on the wall magazines under the sink Like what are we doing here? So you're like, all all right, I'll see what we got. Like you know, is it, you know, maxim magazine or what is it? I kid you not, it was a bunch of playboys from the 1980s. Like someone's grandpa died and they donated them to the sperm bank. That's what happened, like that's had to be what happened, and so, like the experience you're just like this is this is not how it's going to get done. So you know, you give the sample to the person and put your name on it and you leave and drive. You know I drive three hours back to school and I'm like that was weird.
Joe Apgar:Week later get a call. It was on a Monday around 5 30 PM, Cause I remember exactly where I was standing. We had navy blue carpet in our shitty little Penn State apartment and we had a single bedroom, three guys living in this apartment. The place was always a mess. I remember exactly where I was standing and I answered on my BlackBerry Pearl, Remember those? And I answered on my BlackBerry Pearl, my blackberry pearl, remember those and answer my blackberry pearl.
Joe Apgar:Hey, this is, you know so and so, from you know pittsburgh, whatever reproductive center, your sperm count is undetectable in the sample. Do you want us to store it, because that's also part of it, right, it's like the testing of it and then the storage of it. Do you want us to store? Store it? And I was like I don't know. You said it's undetectable. Like what should it be? Like what should the count be? I don't know. Like what's a good number? It's like you know, like 75 million. It's not like 10 is a good number, it's like 50 million or like something crazy, right. And I was like, oh, it's like 50 million or like something crazy, right. And I was like, oh, it's like undetectable. Like there's not even one. Like we found no sperm at all. And I was like, is that a failed test? Like did I do something wrong? Right. And you got to remember I still have cancer, I just had surgery. And now it's like, wait, is something else wrong? Like what's going on? No, nothing's wrong. Like you might just not be able to produce sperm. What's that mean? Like you won't be able to have biological kids. So why don't you just let us know by the end of the week if you want us to store it or not. It's $800 if you want to store it. Like that, like that was a phone call.
Joe Apgar:I remember sitting there thinking like do I tell my parents? Like do I call them now? Do I? Is this like information you just casually pass on? Like next time you see your parents? Like, is this like an emergency phone call? Like what is it like? What is this news? Because at this age that's not what you're thinking about, it's sort of not front of mind. And so I didn't tell my parents right away. So I told my parents like the next time I saw them, which was a few days later. So now I got the results from the sperm bank and they said it was undetectable and they're asking me if I want to store it.
Joe Apgar:It was interesting.
Joe Apgar:My parents most supportive people in the world, you know they're like you know how do you feel? I said I don't know how I feel, Like I don't know how I'm supposed to feel, I don't know. I know it's not a good thing, but I didn't feel like this sense of loss in the moment because I was still sick, Like I was still dealing with cancer and this was like the secondary thing, Like I still hadn't gotten through the primary thing and so it didn't set. It was one of those things that didn't like settle in right away, and so that was sort of the moment and sort of the period in which I think I realized some version of the future just shifted and it's like that's like the grief part, I think, or like the sense of loss, and I think it happens in a lot of different areas of people's life.
Joe Apgar:Right, Like you get some piece of news that just alters like this future vision that you had in your head. It's not necessarily good or bad. Right, it's like just change. You know people don't fear change. Like people fear loss. Like that's what I think stresses people out. I was still seeing it as change, not loss, in that moment. And the additional context is my dad's adopted and we've known that since. You know, my sister and I knew that, since we were able to have memories like that was never a secret, and so that sort of piece of information was always floating out there too. So it was not like I can't have kids, it was like how my family is going to develop in the future. Just shifted, probably, but still not a lot of answers.
Keri Croft:Well, and when you're 21, I mean, the last thing you're thinking about is building your family. At that moment in time, you're just a, like you said, you've got your Penn State t-shirt on, looking for the next place to hang out. It doesn't probably settle in, really, until you're looking or you meet Jill and then you're like okay, you're picturing your life with kids.
Keri Croft:Then you have to really like see it, but having having your dad being adopted, what a great though that's, that's great because it was so a normal thing that you always grew up seeing and knowing and understanding as a possibility.
Joe Apgar:Yeah, and I think you know hundreds of ways to make a family and I think the idea that you know my dad was adopted, we never felt like a certain way about it. We never wondered, like he was never interested in sort of pursuing the path of like finding out who his biological parents were and he sort of knew some stories about them. Who knows how true they were. It's interesting. But the other complexity is and if you talk to any young adult who's ever had cancer, it's like such a formidable time in your life and so you go into sort of the dating scene at some point and you got to like explain cancer. You're going to have to explain this infertility thing at some point. Cancer is an awkward topic for a young person. It's like when you introduce that into the conversation like first date, fifth date, you just hope they know, they hope they figure it out when you introduce testicular cancer, because the last thing you need to be talking about on your first date is testicles, right?
Keri Croft:Or the first thing. Yeah maybe the first thing it depends on who you're dating, which is what ended up happening with my wife. What I was going to say is tell the story about how you just kind of like put it all out there.
Joe Apgar:I graduated college, I moved to Columbus and I was still on different medications and it was weird being 22 and sort of my care was transferred to the James. It's just an awkward thing, but I tried to be as normal as I could and go out and so I ended up dating a few women. Until then I met, finally met my wife at a Halloween party at this great house. Someday I'm going to buy it on Neil and Fifth, we meet at this house party. It's a Halloween party, exchange phone numbers, you know whole thing. And then I call her like three days later like I would like to take you out on a date. I don't know if that happens anymore, by the way, but it was just like very formal, like, and I I can like see myself doing it like that's an important phone call and I like sat down in my chair in my apartment and like sat up with like good posture to make sure, like my voice was hitting it and like, hello, I would like to take you on a date, you know, sort of thing. So we go on this date, we go to Bossy, shout out to Bossy in Victorian Village, like best first date place, we sit down.
Joe Apgar:I just looked right at her and said I have a whole bunch of stuff I'm about to tell you because I just want to get it out of the way. Like I really like you, I can like tell like there's good energy here, but we got to get past like a few things. I just got to lay it out and so I gave her the like 45 minute. Just here's like how the last two years have gone for me and sort of all these things. You know you're trying to pick up body language, like how is this person receiving this information? And it was sort of in some just met with okay, great, like thanks for telling me.
Joe Apgar:You know her dad had had cancer and so she had some experience with that. And you know she sort of mentioned in the dinner she's like I always wanted kids and I've always wanted kids as well. And she's like I've always wanted kids but I've never dreamt of being pregnant. I've never had that sort of dream. Not meaning she didn't necessarily want to be pregnant, but she's just like that was never like a part of how she sort of had dreamed of kids. And in the moment you're like she's bullshitting me, like she's just kind of meeting the moment here. I later figured out that it was like totally true, kind of a match made in heaven from that standpoint.
Keri Croft:Yeah. And then did you guys immediately just know adoption was just the path.
Joe Apgar:Yeah, we did talk to some doctors locally because there's some things you can do as a male to try to sort of spare your fertility and I think for me one of the unique things was they can do this surgery where they actually like open up your testicle and try to I forget the what the procedure is actually called but like take sperm out of the testicle right Surgically. There's a lot of risk in doing that. You know I already had one removed and so you know the risk of something happening to the second one is is high. And you've been still already dealing with like tons of hormone stuff. Anyway, like my testosterone's always been way off and and I never had a baseline before, right, I'd never had my sperm tested before, I never had my testosterone tested prior to to having the cancer, and so we get post-cancer and you know I have no sperm count and my testosterone I mean I was 22, 23, 24 years old and I was testing at like 150. And like a normal male is probably 450 to 1,200,.
Joe Apgar:You know, and I was always feeling the impacts of that I was tired, was tough in the gym, like just tough energy, all that stuff and so there was already stuff indicating like it's not normal anyway and something's wrong. And so there's a path we didn't want to go down and so we chose adoption and I think adoption was always our first choice and we wanted to like close the door on the biological piece. By meeting with those doctors, and we learned a lot too. It was really interesting from a scientific standpoint all the different ways you can approach infertility, which you've covered, you know, on this podcast. The scientific miracles that can happen right now, you know, as a result of research, and just the amazing feats of medicine is is pretty incredible. And but adoption was our first choice and and so we started, started down that path.
Keri Croft:And Cora's how old?
Joe Apgar:She's six and a half.
Keri Croft:How is she doing? She's so she's so cute. I just saw that photo of you guys at. That's a tearjerker, the one you got. You're like singing to her and like it's like's like a framer, it's like one of those you look at and you can almost feel the movement in the photo.
Joe Apgar:Yeah, she's awesome. She's six and a half. She's in kindergarten. We have a new dog. I don't know if she's like a dog sister or a dog mom, whatever she calls herself, but you know her dog. She named the dog Annie. Dog's like her best buddy. She's got some awesome friends. She's loving school. She's got great teachers, great friends at school. She loves dance, so she dances. She's in the softball. She's everything you know you want for a six-year-old. She's got it. She's a ball of energy. She's happy.
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Joe Apgar:Yeah, you know, it's not questions, because we have an open adoption I can share just a little bit about like that process, because it's really interesting how we came to it and we didn't start at an open adoption. So Nationwide Children's actually has a course. It's called Adoption Academy. It's eight weeks long. It's like every Monday night for three hours and you just learn everything about the adoption process and a couple people had recommended that to us. I mean, you learn everything from the different types of adoption. You know through foster care system, private adoption, international adoption, all these things To. If you're going to adopt, you got to go meet like a pediatrician. If you're going to adopt, you got to go meet like a pediatrician, like, and you got to do these things in advance because you can't just show up one day and be like, oh yeah, we need a doctor now for the baby, and so you sort of learn all those things. You know the money aspect of it, all that stuff. So we start an adoption academy, thinking let's do an international adoption, let's do an international adoption because we don't want to deal with complexities of knowing too much, like that was sort of our initial thought. Like that, that was the simple path and it was really interesting because after like three or four weeks we we could both sort of feel ourselves changing our mind about international adoption. There's some complexities with international adoption, so there's some countries who won't let parents adopt if one of the parents has had cancer. So just full stop, you've had cancer, sorry, you can't adopt from our country. We were like, oh, but like I'm healthy now, it doesn't matter. Like you had cancer, it could have been 50 years ago. You had cancer, you can't adopt from this country and other medical things that sort of prevent. But that wasn't what changed our mind. What changed our mind was we had a couple over and people are always so generous with their network and so we had shared that we were starting to pursue adoption and starting to do the paperwork and all this stuff. Some friends of friends said you should meet this couple. They live in UA, you should meet this couple. And so I reached out and said, hey, would you and your wife want to come over for dinner? We've never met, but here's how we're connected. Would you guys want to come over for dinner? We've never met, but here's how we're connected. Would you guys want to come over for dinner? We'd love to ask you questions about your adoption journey. So you know, they said yes, they come over for dinner. We sort of hit it off, we have a great dinner and they had an open adoption. And so at dinner I remember asking, I asked the wife, I said, like tell me why you have an open adoption? Like, isn't that complex? Doesn't it bring all sorts of maybe awkwardness down the road, like uncomfortableness? And she said, yeah, it does. But what's? Is there anything better than one more adult in your child's life that loves her or him, like one more person in the world that unconditionally loves this kid and you might have a relationship with them? And it was like like I'll never forget that moment because, like we flipped, like they left our house and we were like, let let's have an open adoption. Like let's figure out how to have an open adoption.
Joe Apgar:We ended up pursuing our adoption with a private agency, so we wanted a private domestic infant adoption. That was our goal. So we actually went with an organization called Just Choice, which was run by this amazing woman, molly Thomas, here in Columbus, and her expertise is actually same-sex couple adoptions, because most same-sex couples come to the adoption process with adoption as their first choice and that's a different experience than having gone through maybe failed IVF and different things and you end up at adoption and you've had trauma and loss and all of these things. You know a same-sex couple. A lot of times they go right to adoption and like it's just a different experience and we were sort of similar right. We were coming sort of as our first first choice.
Joe Apgar:So we go through the process. The process is long and hard and it's like intrusive and they're like you know the state wants to know how much money you have. And like the fire department comes to your house and they're like you got to make sure there's a fire extinguisher between the oven and the door of your house. We're like what? Like you got to make sure there's a plan on your wall, an escape plan, we're like for the baby that can't read. Like what, what are we doing here? And these are just the rules, right, so you get through all the rules who made?
Keri Croft:you know who made it's like so funny, who?
Joe Apgar:makes, makes the rules, get through the process. We get home study approved and then you know you put together a book of like your family and what you're about and because it gets shown to prospective birth mothers who then choose, you know I want to place my you know son or daughter with this family and then you know you would meet and all that stuff. And it can be a long process. It can be two weeks. It can be two weeks, it could be two years, it could be five years.
Joe Apgar:And we went about six months and weren't hearing much. It's interesting emotionally because you feel judged, right and then kind of in the worst way, like someone's not choosing you, like you know that there's people that are looking at that book of me and my wife pictures on the front, like we had pictures taken, like all this stuff, like someone's not choosing you. I was like why, and like you don't know why and and the reason people get chosen is also can be silly it's like oh, there was a dog on the front cover and I always wanted a dog, so I'm going to choose this family. So there's no rhyme reason. But you still feel really judged. We had these pictures taken by a photographer and with the little sign you know, like with the letters, and it's like we're adopting, like date, tbd, whatever. And we decided to post it on social media. So our social worker had said look, you guys know a lot of people Like social can be sort of iffy with this stuff, but you might just consider posting it. So my wife posts a picture on Facebook and Instagram it's probably still on there actually and it says like we're home study approved, whatever, coming you know, hopefully, tbd, whatever.
Joe Apgar:So she's on her way to a bachelorette party in Miami. So she posts it while she's at the airport on a Friday night. Gets on the plane in Columbus to Atlanta, where her sort of stopover is. Gets to Atlanta she's got a voicemail Turns on her phone. She's got a voicemail Turns on her phone. She's got a voicemail Unknown number. Hey, this is so-and-so. I heard you're interested in adopting. I'd like to talk to you. So red flags go up because there's a lot of scams in adoption, because there's money involved. Anywhere there's money, there's scams, right? So she calls me and she's like I don't know what to make of this. I was like I don't know. They left their number like just call back, like I'll call for you if you want, like. So she ends up calling.
Joe Apgar:It was a ob-gyn in gahanna. He was late, late to Friday night family dinner at a restaurant with my old roommate in Columbus. So the OB that had called Jill and the father were partners in a practice and they were celebrating the father's birthday at a restaurant with the whole family celebrating the father's birthday at a restaurant with the whole family. So the OB was my old roommate's brother-in-law and my old roommate and I. He met his wife the night before. I met my wife both at Halloween parties. So he comes to dinner late. Why are you late? You'll never believe this. But a young woman walked in with her grandmother as we were closing and she's 36 weeks pregnant and she's perfectly healthy. And I don't know what to do Because normally this gets turned over to the state. Normally it's not this clean, normally there's other sort of issues involved. She's fit, she's healthy, the baby's healthy and so his wheels are spinning. My old roommate, calvin and his wife show David the picture and the story. So he called like at dinner On Monday we met the birth mom in a conference room, sort of arranged at their practice.
Joe Apgar:So in the conference room it was Cora's birth mom and her grandmother the birth mom's grandmother. I've never been more nervous in my entire life. Anticipation we sit down, we end up talking to him for a couple hours, learned so much Like such a wonderful family. Cora's birth mom is such a wonderful person. Two and a half weeks later, cora was born. We were in the hospital. My wife cut the umbilical cord. She was in the delivery room. I was outside eating a sandwich. You know the chime like rings in the hospital. I was like I bet that's it. I was like I bet they'll let me in any minute and it turns out they got a few things to do before they let someone like me in there and it was wonderful. I mean, the story is like crazy because our birth mom's grandfather was also a cancer survivor and we shared an oncologist Like there's like all these crazy connections and we had decided that we wanted a relationship with her and she decided she gets to choose that too. She decided she would open a relationship with us, so we had them over for brunch.
Joe Apgar:Cora was born December 17th and we had them over for lunch or brunch, maybe like January 2nd or something, and we had taken Cora home from the hospital and there's a lot of complexities in it. Like Cora's birth mom put Cora Grace Apgar on the birth certificate, which is not normal. Like a lot of times in an adoption it will just say the original birth certificate will say baby, then last name of the birth mother, and then you have to go get it changed. It's like the original birth certificate says something different than she put, like our name on it, which is like a simple thing, but like amazing, right, um, we've had this open adoption. We've had a picture of Cora and her birth mom immediately post-birth Cora's birth mom holding Cora in her hospital gown and Cora wrapped in one of those blankets that they seem to still use from like 1925. It was like a framed picture and from the day we brought Cora home, we've always just told her you grew in birth mom's belly and you grew in our hearts. She's just always and she asks about her.
Joe Apgar:Jill and Cora went and met up with her birth mom and she now has a son of her own. They met at the park a couple weeks ago. You know my wife and her text periodically and share pictures and all this stuff. The coolest moment happened a few years ago. I forget which year it was, maybe 2022. Cora's birth mom was getting married to this great guy. Not Cora's birth mom was getting married to this great guy, not Cora's birth father. We had never met this guy and they invited us to their wedding and then they asked if Cora would be the flower girl and we were like, so honored, but you know there's a lot of dynamics there. So we went to the wedding and Cora got to be the flower girl and it was such a cool experience for Cora and her birth mom and family and our family. We have these amazing pictures from it, and so it's just been a really cool experience.
Keri Croft:You got me on my feels this morning.
Joe Apgar:Yeah, it's pretty magical, it's. I don't think we could have a better sort of experience and relationship and you know, we ultimately decided, like you know, a couple of years ago. There's a lot of complexities in the, the legal paperwork of adoption and, and you know, your, your home study, which makes you sort of available to adopt, can renew, and it's easier to renew it is than it is to like start it all over again. So we kept renewing it, like just in case we wanted to adopt again, and we decided we didn't.
Joe Apgar:Our family felt complete with the three of us and you know you hop on a southwest flight, you just take one little row there, you know just the three of us and so it's uh, it's been like this amazing journey and story and you know, I feel like I'm a really big advocate for adoption in whatever form it takes. But I sort of later learned I think before Cora was born, but like well after Jill and I had started dating and sort of became serious. I went through this period of that. I actually started to get retested my sperm. So I probably went like eight times At some point.
Joe Apgar:I had just decided and it's expensive, so that's you know, you've covered that a little bit on the podcast Like infertility is obnoxiously expensive and it doesn't, it just adds up. And it's like it's like the punches keep rolling in infertility and they come just from all these angles. And then it's like the worst is like someone sticks this big ass bill in front of you. Like, oh yeah, you got to pay this before you walk out the door because insurance isn't touching it. You're like, wait, insurance doesn't cover this. Like no, insurance doesn't give a shit about infertility.
Keri Croft:Like it's crazy and that has to change I mean it's some of it's gotten better to some extent. But, like I was just talking to Dr Jane in here, he's like the one of the head reproductive specialists in the city and I guess it's now like there's 35% of the companies don't cover. Like when I was at AT&T back in the day, I remember looking through and I was like desperate. There was an adoption credit for $5,000. Okay, thank you, but nothing to cover any meds or anything. And I mean the. The one-two punch for infertility is literally the, the emotional wreckage. And then you take the financial and you just like knockout punch.
Joe Apgar:It's crazy, it's crazy, it's expensive, and it expensive and it's I'm sure it's cost prohibitive for families, oh it is.
Keri Croft:And then you. That's why I'm a surrogacy advocate, you know, and I'm an advocate for, uh, foregoing the agency and doing it on your own, like what you just said about the magic of and it's not just social media with my, the way that I kind of view it, but social media is a like rocket fuel, it's powerful but leaning into your network. No one loves you more than the people that know you. And then, moving outward.
Keri Croft:It's kind of the same, in the same vein as the adoption process, because you're like sitting and waiting and looking and thinking, oh, is this perfect person in the universe? But a lot of people don't even consider surrogacy as an option for themselves because they're not them, they're not the Kardashians. But you can do that.
Keri Croft:It's accessible if you get a little, you know, if you get resourceful and creative. So I think back to your point. I mean I love the idea of the open adoption. I know not everybody's circumstances are going to be as pure and clean and no, but I am a huge whether it's egg, sperm donation, adoption, I just think transparency for someone's identity and again, I'm in my lane here. However you want to handle it, you handle it, but it's like, okay, it's maybe awkward, uncomfortable for the adults, but like who's it really about? I never thought about that, that spin, though we had our little first choke up here together. When you said that about like one more person to love, I didn't even duh, like I was thinking more, like okay, like the child deserves to know. But my God, you put that with it and you're like how can you? How can you not?
Joe Apgar:Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting I mean such a simple but powerful statement. It's uh, I mean love is a very powerful thing and it's interesting like love for a child, you know, is that different than love for a spouse? And like what are the complexities with that? And I remember thinking we had the pediatrician who unfortunately passed away a few years ago after her own battle with cancer, but she was the perfect pediatrician for us. She had adopted, she was really really helpful and so we saw her.
Joe Apgar:I think on the third day, second or third day after we took Cora home, we walked in. She was so matter-of-fact, she was probably, like you know, late 50s, had just been doing this for 25, 30 years. We'd sort of got wind that like she's the person that people who adopt like should try to go see. So we walk in. She's like Mom, dad, how you doing, like retired, you know, but we're so excited and we're nervous and like all the things right of first-time parents. She said, mom, how you feeling, my wife's like great, you know, it's just so awesome and so in love with this child.
Joe Apgar:And she goes Mom, you should feel like just this immediate, eternal, like, do anything for you love. She's like Dad, it's going to take you 30 days. I was like what do you mean? She said you think you love, you know, have this unconditional love right now. And you do. She's like in 30 days it will click for you. She's like it happens with every. She's like in 30 days it'll click for you. She's like it happens with every. She's like I I watch it with the moms and the dads and she's like it's different and like at day 30, like we, you know, you go back like for the month checkup and she's like, how are you doing?
Joe Apgar:and I was like it clicked like you know I'd do anything for this, for this little girl, and so it's been fun, it's it's been such a experience. I would do anything for cora. I do think you know I was talking earlier like I had gone through this period where I was going to like the sperm bank to get tested.
Joe Apgar:And I wasn't going to get tested because I was hoping to have biological children. I was going to get tested because I wanted to see if the thing that I thought was wrong with me fixed itself. And like that is like another trauma of people who've gone through like a medical thing and cancer is obviously the example I use. But, like you know, when it goes through cancer it's like you didn't do this to yourself. Like something, something genetically happened, some you had a genetic mutation, something was wrong with your genetics. Like that's what happened. And then you have this other thing happen. It was like something was wrong with me again. I was like, did that thing that was wrong with me get fixed? Like that's what I always wanted to know. Like you know, and maybe that's like the successful, like type a gotta have every box checked and all this stuff.
Joe Apgar:And I remember talking to one of the people in the right reproductive facility and she's like why, like, is a doctor sending you here? Like why do you keep coming here? And I'm like I want to see if, like this changes, like if I like, if my body will like figure itself out. And had a really nice conversation with her and she's like this, like it has nothing to do with, like if something's wrong with you, like like I quit thinking about it that way, like you're not broken right, so I just stopped going. What like? Why am I doing this? Like it's like causing my own head trash. It was like I wanted to keep going back and I'd walk out of there and be like nope, still got no sperm count. I just finally settled on it doesn't matter, nothing's wrong with you.
Keri Croft:But to hear that from a male perspective is so powerful because you hear it from the every woman that sat in your chair during the month during the series. There's an element of that is is that I'm broken. There's something wrong with me you're. You have this insatiable desire and need to figure out what is wrong with you and what has gone wrong in your body. You know. I mean in.
Joe Apgar:In 99 of time it's from the female yeah, yeah, we talked about that the first time we talked. It's like if you just scan the room full of couples and you know you a hundred percent of time you go, oh, they have infertility. Like it's not the dude, right? So there's just like this weird assumption that, like you know, it's never the guy and that's why I've talked about it before and started on your podcast. I've had a lot of different chances now to share like this part of my cancer story.
Joe Apgar:I've met a number of people who you know similar situations to me or close enough where you know they figured out it was like male infertility. There's a sense of guilt from the male side. I think there's a huge sense of loss and what I've heard like from people on your podcast is this huge sense of loss. I'm broken, I'm letting you know the world down Like that is like the narrative I kind of hear from a female point of view. I think the male point of view becomes very like I'm supposed to like protect and take care of my family and do all these things and I'm the one who can't even help create one Like I'm at fault.
Keri Croft:Yeah, and you have this whole. There's a masculine yeah, and you have this whole. There's a masculine angle where it's so much more difficult, I think, for a man going through. It's very, very hard for women, don't get me wrong, but I just think the man gets like, you know, it's just very hard for a man to open up and be vulnerable about such a traditionally masculine. And so Chad Underwood, who was in here too and he had opened up, he was talking about that and the way people talk about like oh yeah, you know the real bro culture around, like getting your wife pregnant and like the things guys say, and like it's all this, you know, puffing your chest out. So it's so important that men, because there's so many going through this alone, see you, see, chad, because I know I give my men a hard time on here, but I love y'all.
Keri Croft:I love y'all. I really do so. I'm so thankful that you and your busy schedule, your busy CEO schedule, chose to come in here and talk.
Joe Apgar:That's important.
Keri Croft:Now there's two more things we need to talk about before we close out. Okay, Number one. Back to your point around. When you were asking Jill out on a date and you thought it through, you sat down, you put your posture up like you presented yourself. I think we need to have a quick chat with the peeps out here. Yeah. People need to get back to that a little bit. Yeah, I think like in today's world. This whole like ghosting and like only texting that. I just think that's so broke down. Yeah.
Keri Croft:So maybe people should take more of like the chivalrous circa 1990 way of asking somebody out on a date.
Joe Apgar:I'm a huge proponent of that. I so I I've never been on a dating app because it was like it was like with jill before those really took off.
Joe Apgar:So I'm kind of fascinated by uh dating app culture and like our people that are on it and you know some friends that are on. I always ask I'm like, it's like show me how that works. Like I'm like, so you just like swipe and then, if they've swiped, you get like this big boom like balloons on your phone and then you just start talking like how does that work? I'm like, do you ever call them? Like do you ever make it to a call?
Keri Croft:and like no, see, that's like you message.
Joe Apgar:and then you go to a coffee shop and like, hope they show up and people get ghosted and I think and this is like the you know efficiency side of my brain it's so much simpler just to call someone. You could call someone and say I would like to take you out for coffee or putt-putt or whatever. Like I would like to take you out and get to know you a little better. Like is that something you're interested in? The conversation's done in like 12 seconds.
Keri Croft:Would putt-putt be in your top five? Oh, I love putt-putt, you know my son has got me real into putt-putt right now, yeah putt-putt's cool.
Keri Croft:So here's the thing. I think what we I think what needs to happen out here everyone coming from the woman who's been married for 20 years I think there needs to be a hybrid. So, from what I'm seeing and hearing from my friends who are on the apps, the apps is a I mean it's fantastic right so you can actually just sort people out. I think there's a lot of value there. But we're going straight from the app into coffee or drinks. You're wasting so much time there, so I think app and then talk on the phone for a minute this whole this whole talking on like why people don't do that.
Keri Croft:So if I were doing it I would be on the app you would use that so I would. You have. You have to. You'd have to use an app at some point, don't you think I don't know?
Joe Apgar:okay, let's say here's the problem with the app. So at least what I've seen by people showing me is that you can filter for things like, uh, height income. I mean, people could lie about these things right, but you can like filter for all these things. So what happens is people generally think they know what they want and they actually have no idea. You're limiting your pool of people because you're like, well, I think I need someone that looks like this or does this or doesn't do this. You've just limited your pool of people. Think about the most interesting people. I mean, think about, like, the most interesting people you probably know in your life. If you had filtered for things that you actually wanted in relationships, they wouldn't have made it into it.
Keri Croft:No, very, that's a very good point. So let's say this an ideal app where you didn't do that. Okay.
Keri Croft:Okay, because, like the world that we're in, you're getting up, you're going to work in you're getting up, you're going to work, you're going home, you're only in a certain sphere, so you're only going to connect with so many people out in the world. But I mean, everyone did it before the apps. It happens. So let's just say, if you were going to be on the app and you're not filtering whatever, I just think when you find someone who could be interesting, you have a five minute conversation with me. I'm going to sniff out whether I'm going to have coffee with you or not. I just think jumping straight into like a face-to-face. There's a bridge there that I think people need to like figure out the art of the conversation again. Yeah, so that's that, all the sage wisdom to all of you all out there.
Joe Apgar:I support that.
Keri Croft:From these two married old people who have been so disconnected and then secondly go back to you, said that we need a new model for the sperm bank. What will we create?
Joe Apgar:Dude, I've thought of this.
Keri Croft:So how would we? Is it like I mean Pornhub?
Joe Apgar:No, no, it's not that kind of stuff. It's, I mean, a lot of. It comes down to design, right? So you want to walk into a place and feel like inspired. I think you don't want it to feel. I mean these places generally feel like inspired to what inspired to. I mean inspired to do what you're there to do, okay, so?
Keri Croft:do we make it look kind of like a strip club?
Joe Apgar:no, no, no, no, no, no no, you make it look like you're walking into the lobby of a great hotel. The you know person at reception is not like all medical gowned out it's. You know you gotta think, think about. Like you know there's people that have like white coat syndrome right yeah, they go to the doctors like they have a hard time giving blood. Their blood pressure skyrockets when they see a nurse, like all these things. Right, you need to walk in and give your best performance in these places.
Joe Apgar:Right, like I don't know if there's medical science behind, like if there's like such thing as a good performance or a bad performance. But you need to be at your best when you walk in, and so you walk in there's plants, there's maybe dark wood, there's like a waterfall, there's's like music, like spa music playing, and you go in and it's not about the content, right, like in you know, I referenced these like 80s.
Keri Croft:Playboys, things. We have a phone now, so if someone needed, they don't want you to touch anything.
Joe Apgar:They want you to have clean hands and all that stuff you don't want to like. Walk into a room and there's a screen that, like you know, there's a person in there 10 minutes ago looking at that screen like you don't want like that creeping in your head yeah, yeah, yeah. I think if you're functioning at just the right level, you don't need a bunch of content thrown at you. I think you can just get in the moment and get in there and do it. But it's's about, like the environment you're in.
Keri Croft:I have a stupid question why isn't the spouse allowed in there.
Joe Apgar:I don't know, I never thought of that, but there's. You know that famous American Pie movie, which is like another way that they can do that. Do you remember? You know what I'm talking about.
Keri Croft:Tell me it's called. See, now we're going to get really vulgar, that's okay. Well, I can always edit it out. Your seat milking the prostate. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, stifler, yeah, why couldn't the spouse come in? Because it's like too like raw, like you're having like a couple in there doing something like what's the difference between that and having like mag? Is it like illegal or so? I don't even understand I don't know.
Joe Apgar:I don't know if it's a sanitary.
Keri Croft:We need a deep dive here because I think that we found a an open space in the market yeah, I think, I think you could make this place very cool, very inspirational.
Joe Apgar:Not, you know, you walk in there. It's like it's. You're kind of walking in like shameful yeah I'm walking there hyped like and I'm like, I'm serious, like you want to be greeted you know we're gonna name it like you oh you're, you're Joe.
Joe Apgar:Like I know Joe's coming in today. Like you know, we've got to hype Joe up when he walks in. Like that kind of energy, like think about that energy going to do that thing. You walk in, you walk out Like there's no awkward transaction, like one of these times. One of the two of the most beautiful people I've ever seen in my life and I've probably just made this up now in my head over the years was a medical resident who was asked to see my case. When I first learned I had testicular cancer, she walked in the room and I said nope, not happening. I'm sorry if this makes you feel awkward, but I can't do this. You're way too good looking for this to happen. And another person was someone I had to hand a jar full of sperm to at the sperm bank. Gorgeous, here's my cup of sperm. I hope you have a nice day and leave.
Keri Croft:That's what you got to get rid of. I think that could be automated. So when you do IVF, they have this little window and the embryologist literally lifts up the window long enough to be like OK, your name, your age, and then they close it.
Keri Croft:It's like the man behind the curtain there and then, like when you go to get like an OB appointment they give you, you go to the bathroom. There's a little like you pee in it or whatever, and then there's a little thing you lift up and you put it in there. There's got to be a way, or someone somewhere has thought of that. You shouldn't be having to like look at someone or like have that awkward interaction now with ai.
Joe Apgar:they should be able to eventually have like an ai bot that's like the thing about what if it felt like a sports bar and it was a dude, just like a?
Keri Croft:that could be. That could be, I think. Would that make you feel better? I don't know. I'd have to probably try it out. We'd have to think of that, but I have a name for it. What's the name, jax?
Joe Apgar:That's a good yeah, no.
Keri Croft:Jax Off, like whatever the street name is.
Joe Apgar:Now you're going to have to put the little E next to your podcast thing. On this one.
Keri Croft:You have a better name.
Joe Apgar:I don't. I never got to the name. We have to workshop it a little bit.
Keri Croft:I think, listen. So at this point, joe and I are looking for investors for our new business concept Raising a round of money for this. Joe, seriously, thank you so much.
Joe Apgar:This is great We've laughed, we've cried.
Joe Apgar:We've done all the things. I love the awareness continue to bring this and letting sort of men have a voice in this conversation. And you know, I think it's really important. I think there's hundreds of ways to build a family. I think when you get to the other side of it, it's, you know, like the love is is going to be as strong, like any way your family's been built. You know and also feel really privileged to. You know, have a daughter and a family and realize how lucky I am. So I appreciate you giving me this platform.
Keri Croft:Well, I appreciate you coming in. It's always good to lock eyes with you.
Joe Apgar:Yes, you too.
Keri Croft:And if you're still out there following your girl, follow me on YouTube, spotify, apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, keep moving, baby, if you've made it to the end of this episode. Thank you so much for listening, and if infertility is part of your story, we've created a few powerful ways to support you. During the month of May, we're launching a free Slack channel because we know firsthand just how isolating infertility can be. Whether you're navigating IVF, grieving a loss, exploring surrogacy or just need a safe place to exhale, this space is here for you. It's more than a chat thread. It's a community of support, shared stories and quiet strength. Come as you are, ask the questions, share the wins and the heartbreaks and know that you are not alone in this.
