The Keri Croft Show
The Keri Croft Show
Sarah Gormley on Chasing Joy, Surviving Loss & Writing Her Way to Healing
You can’t plan for the moments that change you, but you can decide what to do with them. That’s what I loved about my conversation with Sarah Gormley.
Sarah is a Columbus local and the owner of Sarah Gormley Gallery in the Short North—and she’s lived one hell of a story. We got into everything: standing on the porch screaming “F***” with her daughter in response to her mom's cancer diagnosis, dating as an adult while living in her childhood bedroom, getting fired by Martha Stewart, and what it’s really like to run an art gallery in a tough market.
She’s also written a book, The Order of Things: A Memoir About Chasing Joy, that didn’t even use the word “joy” until the last chapter — which tells you everything about the journey it took to find it.
We talked grief, love, starting over, and the work it takes to quiet that inner critic long enough to build a life you actually want to live. It’s proof that joy has a funny way of showing up when you least expect it.
📚 Grab Sarah’s book HERE.
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Speaker 2:And he was like, but he was like. But I liked you kind of and I'm like well, I mean, I thought you were real handsome and charming, but I didn't think that there would be a relationship, right.
Speaker 1:You know that's so great. Okay, we'll get to that. We'll get to that.
Speaker 2:Everybody's always like are you still with him? I'm like, yes, it's shocking.
Speaker 1:And then he lives here he lives in Powell. Okay.
Speaker 2:So we're now looking for a house which is like Together. Impossible to find a house right now, oh sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sarah Gormley, welcome to the Keri Croft Show. Thank you for having me. You know we're finally here together. Yay, I love talking to people who've actually sat down and written a book. It's like one of my dreams to be able to write a book. So when someone does it, and does it so successfully as you have, have you started yours.
Speaker 1:Yet I mean, yeah, I've got like a mess. I've got a mess of like things in a google doc, but yeah, it's just that's like such a, it's like so out of my depth it's not do it you'll.
Speaker 2:You'll love it what?
Speaker 1:so? Was it something you always thought about doing? Or when you met that woman and she said you should write a book, was that like the first time. It like hit you that you should write a book. How that all come about. That's such a good story.
Speaker 2:Um, I try to like be humble, but I've always been a good writer yeah.
Speaker 2:I was writing poetry as a kid and in high school and I was a lit major. So writing is just something that's like in me and I suppose, somewhere in the back of the mess of the mind I thought maybe one day I'd like to write a book, but honestly didn't think I had anything meaningful to say, and never fiction, always first person narrative, memoir, and so somewhere I thought it could be a possibility, but I didn't think I had something to write about until 2019. Was the title a struggle? This was not the original title. The original title was this Is what you Need to Know Pretty ambiguous, and the new title, the actual title title.
Speaker 2:The order of things is still a little nebulous. Right, it doesn't look like. What the hell is that book about? Um, only when I added the subhead which is a memoir about chasing joy, did it really come together. And I didn't realize. I didn't realize that I was chasing joy until I finished writing the book. The word joy doesn't even appear anywhere in the book until the last chapter. So anyway, it's, it's a process and you have to do it because it's you learn so much about yourself and it's so convoluted and it's you know. You just have to commit and do it and if you do, you will write a book. I think everyone should write a book. I'm like the book pimp. I'm like do it write a book?
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause I mean, even if you sell them or you know like if it's externally, whatever the success is measured by. But to your point, I think you would learn a lot about who you are and it's like probably a really cool process to go through internally.
Speaker 2:It is and you know parts of it are very painful. It's a little bit like, you know, bleeding from the veins on the page. It's a little bit of emotional excavation maybe. So you know, and then memory is very tricky, you think is that what happened? Is that what we talked about? Is that right? And I don't know it's. But then fun too. I had a lot of laughs. I mean, there was a spoiler alert. Mike came back home to Ohio. Mom's cancer was back. Oh, mom cancer was back. And there's a scene in the book and it sounds made up where like we just stood on the porch and yelled fuck at each other at the top of our lungs because you know it was bad. But in the writing process I found humor because I'm like that's pretty funny.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's pretty funny that a woman and her adult daughter just standing on the porch yelling fuck at each other as loud as they could, but how raw and real, I mean, because there's really nothing else to say Exactly.
Speaker 1:You know it's like fuck, fuck, but the way you wrote it in there too, it's like the fuck is like this long, you know, so you can. You can actually picture you guys having that conversation, but it's like fuck, fuck.
Speaker 2:You know why. And so, yes, the writing it. I've done some pretty cool things in my life and hope to do more, but I mean writing the book and actually committing to it and doing it. I'm really proud of it and it's the book I wanted to write and it's the best book I could write, so I'm proud of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you should be. It's really good, thank you. So, going back to what you just said about there were really hard parts. Looking back on the writing process, what were some of the harder parts for you to really sit with and write?
Speaker 2:Two, the first two things that came up, and I say this in the book, I'm going to answer in two ways. The week she dies and I say like I've been procrastinating, I didn't want to write this part because I wanted to show readers what happened and be as truthful as possible and honor her, because in hindsight now, increasingly, every year that passes, now, increasingly, every year that passes, like she managed her death so beautifully, and I think you know she did it for herself, but I think she did it for us, my brother and sister and me and to be able to do that as a gift. You know she was able to die at home at the family farm, her favorite place on earth. It was peaceful, home at the family farm, her favorite place on earth. It was peaceful and she was lucid until the day before, and so I wanted each day to share a scene or two of what the experience was like, because for people who have gone through it, there's there's nothing quite as profound. I don't know if you've been through it.
Speaker 1:I in not in that detail of like being with someone for that, but yeah, like my grandma passed and like it's definitely um, it's a, it's a whole thing, it's a real thing yeah.
Speaker 2:So so that was hard to write about. The other thing that was hard to write about was my relationship with her. That was complicated and there's a line in the book and the relationship between a mother and a daughter is no tidy thing. It's not and I I wanted again to show that while the relationship had some complexities, it was fueled by love and care and it took me some therapy of my own to start to see her as her own person. That had nothing to do with me and that's a tip to viewers and listeners. That's where the emotional growth is.
Speaker 1:It's hard to get there sometimes. Yeah, because as a child, every I think perspective you have on your parent is attached to you or your lens.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So when you can see them as just a flawed, scared human being out there on their own, doing the best, she can with what she has.
Speaker 2:So that was hard to write again because I wanted it to be accurate and show how I changed and how my perception of her changed and how you know we did the best we could.
Speaker 1:Let's go back to your own, like your depression and kind of this self-loathing stuff that you feel like you just always had inside of you. Can you get like give the listener a little more?
Speaker 2:Yes, and, and it's interesting that you say depression, because I didn't ever name it that. So, from the time I was a little girl increasing into teenage, dumb and young adulthood, um, I've I think of it as a cassette tape those do not exist anymore because I'm old as hell, um but like a running loop. Imagine a loop on a film or a. And it was just a constant inner voice of you're a piece of shit, you suck, you're not good enough, you're fat, you're ugly, you know. And. And unlike depression for instance, it didn't debilitate me. I wasn't not getting out of bed, I didn't go inward.
Speaker 2:What happened is that the self-loathing was a motivator. So I became an overachiever and it took me a long time to untangle Like I was, like I don't understand, I think, what the world wants from me. I thought what my parents wanted from me was to be smart and skinny and successful, and so I just did those things, and I don't say it lightly, but it appeared to everybody else that it was easy for me to accomplish things and do things. But I thought that I needed the voice to motivate me because I was showing that negative voice that I named Scott Kennedy, who was the second grade bully.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's what it felt like and I didn't realize all the I mean, you know, because the world is giving you the gold stars, right, you keep getting the raises, you keep getting the bigger job and your friends you know I was smart and funny and they all liked me. So it it is, and there are a lot of women in particular who have this. I've since learned from after writing the book. You know, name a woman in your head who you think looks amazing, who's got it all going on and dig a little deeper, and she might have some of this not all, but too many women in particular, I think, do why was?
Speaker 1:where did the skinny thing come from? From when you were really young? The?
Speaker 2:skinny thing um.
Speaker 1:You know my mom went on diets, drank tab and fresca and did atkins, and it's a control it was a control thing, but it wasn't anything anyone said to you, it was just more.
Speaker 2:You saw your mom doing the diets, you saw that she was thin and society said, yeah, and so you just thin is good, thin is better, and so I was like, oh okay, well, let's go be thin and, frankly, be as thin as possible, because thin is good yeah, because you mentioned anorexia and that you were obsessed with being thin and you'd get in the bathtub and like, look at your hip bones and you know calories around 16.
Speaker 2:And I would say that 16 to sophomore year of college, junior year of college, there was stuff, um, and and I'm glad you brought this up because it's one of the things that I'm very sensitive about. So the way I handled it was by myself, because I knew I had a problem and I decided that I can't be a woman who has an eating disorder, because that doesn't line up with being smart, skinny and successful. You can be skinny, but you can't have an eating disorder, because people who have an eating disorder have a disorder and I couldn't do that Now, does that make sense to anyone but me?
Speaker 2:Probably not. A lot of people need help. A lot of people need a lot of therapy. A lot of people need help. A lot of people need a lot of therapy. A lot of people need clinics with professionals, and so I am not suggesting that other people can help themselves with disordered eating without external help, and so I was sensitive to that in the book. Again, I wanted to be as truthful as possible, but that's, you know. I still have some stuff. You know now I'm into the menopausal stuff, so that's super fun. There's always stuff. There's always stuff. So I mean, I'm not walking around in a bikini celebrating my body every day, let's be clear, right, right.
Speaker 2:But I have a much better handle on what health means.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you. So you had it. You dabbled, which we have. People have, like they've dabbled in, um, you know, binging and purging, and like. It doesn't mean you're necessarily going to need to go into the hospital and need intervention.
Speaker 2:Sometimes people can work themselves through phases of things yes, so it's kind of so I had a good four to five years committed to being starving myself, okay, and then you kind of like I just evolved out of it. Yeah, evolved out of it yeah, which I'm.
Speaker 1:You're not the only one that's done, that's yeah and so you were really successful professionally well relatively. I mean I think, and then you get fired from Martha Stewart.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, I want to know?
Speaker 1:did you know? Know her? Yes.
Speaker 2:So you like know her. If she saw me today, she would pretend like she didn't know me and she would be like I don't even know who. That is Probably, but it's okay.
Speaker 1:But she knows you.
Speaker 2:She knows me. We had some funny times.
Speaker 1:What did you think about her documentary?
Speaker 2:You know what I thought? The documentary was really well done. I read her complaint about it, which was at the end. They had her kind of walking into the woods and it seemed like a death sequence and I agreed with her. I'm like that was a little rough, but I thought it was a fairly accurate portrayal. From my experience. You know she is smart and funny and inquisitive, one of the most curious people I've ever met, and she doesn't like it if anyone disagrees with her, even people she hires. So it makes it pretty hard to run a business.
Speaker 1:Did you like working for her?
Speaker 2:No, but you know it was very clear that I was in an impossible role. So it I mean, I'm not the first person to help get myself through an eating disorder and I'm not the first person to be fired by Martha Stewart.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so you get fired from there. Was it like mental traumatizing or was it like OK?
Speaker 2:a little, Because, mainly because I didn't know how long it would take to next to get the next job, and it took, I don't know, almost a year to like find the next thing. Um, no, it wasn't. It wasn't so traumatizing and I, in hindsight, I shouldn't have taken the job. I mean, even through the interview process, people would like I remember, like you know, cause you're meeting with the, I was meeting with the other senior executives and why, why do you want to work here, Sarah?
Speaker 1:Are you sure you want to work here? Yeah?
Speaker 2:So it was an experience.
Speaker 1:Well, and you made some comment that the more successful you got, the more miserable you were.
Speaker 2:Well, and that is not all organizations, but many big companies, publicly traded companies in particular, even nonprofits. You know, the more senior you are, the more political it gets. You get further away from doing the thing, making the thing, providing the service, and then you get into the what is the strategy? What did we agree to do? Why didn't that work? Whose fault is it? Who gets the budget? And so the the kind of the beauty of the thing you're more removed from, and I also didn't start therapy until 40. So that was in play. I don't know what it would be like if I went back to a big quote, unquote, normal job today. I think I would have a very different experience because I'm a healthier person emotionally.
Speaker 1:Was therapy just a total game changer in your life?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I kind of I make that noise because it's like nobody wants to hear about my fucking therapy. You never know. But yes, all of the good things, the best things in my life would not exist today had I not started therapy. A lot you can talk about. You know serendipity, coincidence, fate. I'm like no therapy. Yeah, once you have a healthy relationship with yourself, every relationship in your life gets better. Yeah, do you still go? Yes, tuesdays at 11,. I had to reschedule this week. Carrie David says hi.
Speaker 1:That's amazing, but it is. I mean it really. You know you talk about. Writing a book is therapeutic and you learn so much about yourself You're not going to learn. If you get a good therapist, you will learn a lot about who you are and how you operate and how you can still 12 years and I'm like, oh, so much to learn.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I think this is a learning opportunity. I'm like, oh my God.
Speaker 1:So today you own an art gallery, I do, and so so, so tell the listener. So how did that sort of interest and love I know you've got a piece of art, I think, from your mom, was it your mom, grandma, your grandma, grandma Cameron and kind of like put the turn the light on for you but like, how did your life lead you to going, oh, I want to have a art, I want to own an art gallery.
Speaker 2:So yes, I talk about in the book. My grandma Cameron bought me my first piece of art original art when I graduated from DePauw and there was something that happened in that moment that just stayed with me. So my classmate, matt Wentz, happened to be in the art center with his mom before the ceremony and I was in the art center to show grandma Cameron this piece and she was like I don't, it's abstract and I don't understand it, but if you love it I will buy it for you. And she counted out $100 bills to this kid, matt. It was the first piece of art he ever sold and I just it stuck with me, sort of the magic and joy in that moment, frankly, like he created something that moved me so much that I wanted to own it and like that that is pretty freaking cool. So then life happened and I went on and it never occurred to me to try to make a career out of it. Probably a good thing, it's a tough business.
Speaker 1:We'll get to that.
Speaker 2:So yeah. So then I just started buying art that I loved as I could afford it. I moved to New York, bought a piece of art for two200. It's a little abstract called Yankee Stadium Looks like the crowd Now it hangs in my powder room would come over to these apartments in New York. They would be like how do you have so much art? And I would basically say, well, how do you not Like it's available to all of us. You just have to. You know it was a passion.
Speaker 2:So then one thing led to another. I moved from New York to San Francisco, came home from San Francisco to be with mom and I vowed I didn't work for a full year. I needed a break from corporate life and I didn't know what was happening with her. She passed away. I came home in November of 17. She passed in February of 18. And I was like, Sarah, no matter what, do not work, Get a full year of to get it off of you. And then moved to Columbus and started doing some consulting and I was like, oh, this feels like what I was doing before. I'm making slides, I'm, I'm writing this feels like a powerpoint make I don't know.
Speaker 2:And and Columbus is amazing. Like where else, in what other city can someone overhear you say? This is when I was like a pop-up gallery, because I still had the art thing. I'm like I just need to get it out of my system. I'll do a pop-up Three months. And so I was living on High Street at the time and someone from the wood companies overheard me talking about it, sent me an email and said and someone from the wood companies overheard me talking about it, sent me an email and said we have a space for you. So I opened the gallery in April of 19. Because Columbus enables things like that to happen.
Speaker 1:No, it's an incredible city. It's got to be a grind of a business. Let's cut the shit. Cut the crap.
Speaker 2:Well, here's the deal. The product itself is entirely subjective and a luxury good in essence. Not luxury by cost, but luxury. Nobody has to own original art, so it's a rough business. That said, you don't have to buy inventory, so a typical gallery split is 50-50. You have Daniel Rona paintings in here. I represent Daniel, so he brings the paintings in for a show. There's no financial exchange, only if something sells. So it is easier than some retail businesses from that standpoint. Um, but yeah it's, I'm not having the best year. It's a little rough, so we'll see yeah, I can imagine this year too.
Speaker 1:With just um everything happening in the world, people aren't exactly thinking about.
Speaker 2:Original art is like the top priority, priority no, and so we'll see, we're gonna just have to hustle differently how do you like?
Speaker 1:how do you do it? Do you like? I would think you'd have you know. You have your sort of sector of like clients you get to know and you're like oh, this would look lovely in your foyer. You know, I say it just like that this would be beautiful in your foyer because there's an accent with art.
Speaker 2:This would look.
Speaker 1:This would look marvelous in your pool room you must have this piece and so you're just kind of like what's the main? How do you sell it most of the time? Is it just like that? Or are you like people just walk like? How do you?
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Speaker 2:Well, the rhythm for the physical gallery is shows. So I have a show opening Wednesday night. One of the artists, zach Van Horn. It's the first time he's showing at the gallery and I've paired him with a woman from Dayton, michelle Bondurant, and you know the openings usually get a ton of people and typically that's where we will sell the majority of the pieces that are going to sell. There are some months that are a little bit different.
Speaker 2:Um, our entire inventory of all the artists is up on um, built on shopify, so you can click and buy, and so this, you know, for the next year, I really have to figure out a way to sort of unlock the online buying of it all and be less reliant on Columbus, just for we just have to have a much wider net, but it's hard. Fortunately, I've hired a young woman, becca, who is just phenomenal and that's I'm also stubborn about that. I don't want to do it without her, and there's a cost there. You know, it's just it's running a business, but we'll see. I want it to work. I think it's. I say like, I love it, I think I'm really good at it. Just have to figure out how to make more money.
Speaker 1:Do you? Are you 50 50 with online stuff too?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know it's interesting because I have my best friends, uh, an artist in Chicago and there's another friend of hers that's a really um popular artist too and she does a lot of work for Kelly Wurstler. Oh, yes, um, beautiful stuff. And you know, it's kind of the same conversation around having all this inventory and feeling like blocked and like really questioning yourself and your art and trying to figure out how to market it differently. Yes, you know, I mean, shannon's been talking about doing this like online auction or like how do we figure out how to get this original art into people's hands more?
Speaker 2:yes, and if, and if. There was here's the deal if there was a formula that worked every time, there would be a lot more art galleries. You know it's really it's relationship business, and we have some amazing galleries in Columbus Sharon Weiss, michelle Brandt, Kenny Galleries and Art Access and Bexley, like they're. Just. If the gallery is not doing well, it's because I'm not hustling enough. I mean, that's the answer, so we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:Okay, so back to the book and you. You mentioned that the word joy doesn't even come up until the end. When did you say to yourself oh wait, this is chasing joy like when did that kind of come into play for you?
Speaker 2:I mean, it sounds phony baloney when I say this, because I can't even believe it.
Speaker 2:So the tagline for the gallery which, again, the gallery opened in 2019 is art can be a source of joy for everyone, and someone called me a joy broker once, because that's what art is it like, brings you joy. And I I you know, I think I'm creative and I'm a writer and I'm a branding expert, and so like for the gallery, I was like, yes, it's about joy, but I never actually thought that that is something that I wanted or was seeking for myself. And so, through the writing of the book, which I started in 20 and finished and published in 24, I was like, oh my god, that, that feeling, the feeling that I had in my body when I'm driving up to Cleveland after I'd met with an artist, amy Pleasant I was like, oh, that's what I'm feeling, it's joy. And it was like completely overwhelming to realize that. And so then I was like, oh my God, that's what I had been searching for all along, even though that's not what I would have named it.
Speaker 1:And when you, it's Zanesville, right where you, where you're from, and you so is San Francisco to New York, to Zanesville.
Speaker 2:New York, chicago.
Speaker 1:New.
Speaker 2:York, san Francisco, back home.
Speaker 1:Ok, yes, so big cities, excitement.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Back to Zanesville and you knew it would be temporary.
Speaker 2:Probably, I thought I didn't know.
Speaker 1:But but you, you're like, I'm just going to come be, I'm going to take care of my mom, live with the family for a year and I give my.
Speaker 2:I gave myself a commitment of a full year and I just gave this advice to another woman who was taking some time off. I'm like you need a full year to like really regroup.
Speaker 2:So yeah, what were the most memorable or like special moments with your mom during that time that you look back on, you're like, wow, in spite of it all, like her being sick, like this was well, there, there were several, but the one that first popped into my mind, you know, she, she didn't feel well obviously, and she wasn, she wasn't eating, and so you become obsessed, when you're a caregiver, with the eating. And one morning she woke up and said I actually feel hungry, let's go up to that diner and get breakfast.
Speaker 2:So we go to this diner and she ate pancakes with whipped cream and hash browns and coffee and juice and like she ate more in one sitting than I'd seen her eat. You know, in the previous week and I was so excited and so happy for her, I remember I took a picture and sent it to my brother and sister. Like mom's good day, she's eating. We got in her truck she drove a pickup truck for the last 10 years of her life truck for the last 10 years of her life and we pull out and like a half mile away I hear you know her stomach. And I'm like oh, oh, oh. And she, it's so awful. And she said, sarah, you know, we gotta, we gotta, I get, pull over, we gotta go. And I'm like what, where am I supposed to go? We're still like four miles from the farm. Do you want to stop at, like the McCutcheon's?
Speaker 2:And she was very private about her cancer. And no, just drive faster, drive faster. I'm like I'm driving as fast as I can, I'm driving as fast as I can, just hold on, hold on. And we come around this bend, past Fuller's golf course you know the roads that I grew up driving on. She looks over with a very specific face and she said doesn't matter now, and so my sweet mom dying of cancer pooped her pants and I, and we started laughing and crying and we kept saying so for the rest of her life, which was short, we saying doesn't matter now. And you know, I say in the book in this scene I watched her get out of the truck and walk into the house, which there's a certain walk that happens when something like that happens, and I just you know I never loved her more, right? So yeah more right?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, it's. Those are moments that you have to find levity in caregiving, because otherwise it's too much to bear. And so we had oh, we had some, we had some good ones and laughter, even even though you know, we knew exactly what was coming, and she also stopped treatment. So she stopped treatment in January, and then you just wait and you don't know, and that's a particular kind of space, you know.
Speaker 1:So yeah, Especially if somebody who wants to, for me I would think, god, I want to control that. You can't control any of it. And so then if you, especially if you like, stop taking. You know you're like okay, this is now up to just the body, yeah, the body.
Speaker 2:And you know, I remember I don't know the exact words in the book, but I, you know when she decided to stop treatment and she was strong-willed, we weren't going to convince her otherwise. And she knew. And in hindsight I think she knew before she started the first treatment. I think she did the first treatment for us. She said I feel it in my bones, I feel it. So when she stopped treatment in January, I called a palliative care doctor and I was like, well, what are we looking at time-wise? I mean, what a horrific thing to try to predict. And they were like two weeks to two months and it was a month.
Speaker 1:And then where did this? Let's talk about this little love affair that sparked Camillus. Am I saying it right? Yes, camillus, so give it. Yes, camillus, so give it, let's. Let's just give the viewers a little spoiler alert on that one too, that you, just you, found love.
Speaker 2:I mean, I am living at the family farm. My dad had died the year before. I did not have a job, I did not have a home, I did not have a car. I was living in my childhood bedroom waiting for my mom to most likely die. So it was. It was not the best time of my life, carrie, and when you put it that way, I was like huh. So my brother, one of his dear friends and my closest neighbor's cousin, somebody that I had known casually over the years, camillus um, had just gone through a divorce and it's real sparkly, real charming, and earlier in the year my brother had said hey, you know, camillus is going through some tough shit. You should maybe like, at least like flirt with him a little bit. I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, feeling real flirty.
Speaker 2:Fast forward to November, december, november, and I was like I just texted him. I mean I had been out the night before with a close friend from high school and I drank as much red wine as I could put into my body, so you can imagine how I felt and I'm driving down the country road again in mom's pickup truck and then he passes me in his truck and I was like that was Camillus, and so I didn't have his number. I got his number from my brother and I texted him and I just didn't have his number. I got his number from my brother and I texted him and I just I didn't give a shit. I mean I was like exactly how long am I going to have to be home before you ask me out?
Speaker 2:It was nine, 30 in the morning and he said I'll pick you up in 15 minutes, which I didn't see the text, because I was back down in the holler at the farm cell phones don't always work and uh, yeah, and so so he shows up. He shows up, hello, my mom adored him, as did my dad, and uh, he was like, hey. I was like, hey, I just brushed my teeth like red wine stains, you know, a hot mess. He was like come on, let's go run some errands. I need to go buy a mattress. I was like, okay, that was it. Anyway, it's just, it's so amazing and I knew by the end of our lunch and mattress shopping outing I was like, oh, I like him and he wanted.
Speaker 1:He was like no, and then he was like no, because he Just too much going on yeah.
Speaker 2:Just he's just gone through a divorce.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he had two kids and just it, the timing's off. And I was like, okay. And then I went back to San Francisco to pack up my apartment there and I was like, what's? You know, I text him. I said, hey, I'm flying in from you know, I'll be landing in Columbus. Do you want to grab a beer? And we, we went to God, where did we go? I know this? Someplace at Easton, close to the airport. And we sat there, you know, completely sober, and I said what do you think we should do here? And he was like I think we should go for it. And I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 1:You're like, that's what I wanted to hear, Camillus, yes.
Speaker 2:I changed my voice again. I was like I'm selling art and trying to date you. Now I'm a sex kid.
Speaker 1:Now we date. Hey, Camillus, now we make love.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that was the most surprising thing of my lifetime, and so now he lives in Powell.
Speaker 1:He's in Powell, yeah, and you're going to live together.
Speaker 2:We're talking about it, we'll see. I've never lived with a man, so yeah, speaking of I mean I just, turned 53. I'm old as fuck and I'm like a child. You are not old as fuck.
Speaker 1:So, Speaking of you said that the longest you'd ever dated a man was like three months.
Speaker 2:I mean, I was not good at dating.
Speaker 1:What do you think was so bad about you and dating?
Speaker 2:Well, Carrie, it's called the Velcro effect, which I have learned Well, Carrie, you little bitch. No, it's the Velcro effect. This is called trickle-down therapy for listeners and viewers.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Especially women. You know who you are. If you feel like shit about yourself, you only seek out partners who allow you to keep feeling like shit about yourself. So you date cheaters, you date men who are unkind to you, you date men who don't appreciate you and you keep trying, like a little puppy dog, to get love out of the wrong people, and that's called the velcro effect. And once you get yourself right, all of a sudden a kind, beautiful, wonderful man named camilla shows up in your life and you're ready and it's like oh this is how it goes that's what that feels like.
Speaker 2:That's crazy, not really. I mean. It makes it's not all like. It makes tweety birds and roses all the time we have our stuff.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I don't think anybody's relationship is.
Speaker 2:When you're in a relationship with another human being, there's going to be problems yeah, but that for me, when I look back at the other men I had been involved with or tried to be involved with, the common denominator was they weren't good matches for me because I kept chose. You know, I chose men who weren't good men for me.
Speaker 1:So how do you do this different now? How does the self-talk go? Because I feel like if you lived for so long thinking you're a piece of shit and saying all these negative things to yourself, for so long thinking you're a piece of shit and saying all these negative things to yourself, that dies really hard, even with therapy. Yeah, patterns are so incredibly hard to change so when you get something today where it's like knock, knock pos, yes, you know I basically how do we do that?
Speaker 2:basically, like, not today, we're not doing that today, and I kind of say it to myself and it's a little bit like that's not how I'm going to spend my time and energy. And if I hadn't learned to quiet the voice, I wouldn't have written a book, I wouldn't have an art gallery, I wouldn't have Camillus, wouldn't have camillus. You know for sure the negative self-talk would have ruined the relationship because I would have started picking at him. You know how you can do that.
Speaker 1:Feel a little bad about yourself and all of a sudden you're like picking on him. Yeah, yeah, there's probably a. You know there's a lot of word for that yeah, so it's not totally gone it.
Speaker 2:It's about managing it and having tools to like keep it in check. I would say Some days are better than others. Menopause again is really hard, especially for any woman who's had disordered eating of any sort. You know, feeling out of control of your body is a hard thing.
Speaker 1:How are you managing menopause?
Speaker 2:I started HRT hormone replacement therapy and it's been a great, great help. I had a lot of pain, joint pain, especially in my hips, and I didn't have terrible hot flashes Definitely brain fog and there's some of that. That's just age, so I would say that my symptoms were not terrible terrible. But I started the hormone replacement therapy and it has, like, completely aside from I, work out like I don't have any of the like hip and joint pain. Oh, did you know there's something called menopause shoulder.
Speaker 1:I did have that Frozen shoulder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had frozen shoulder for six months and it's like I was like what the fuck, Like the shoulder's going to go.
Speaker 1:And now it's fine. Now it's fine, I mean, but like hormone replacement therapy can be really helpful.
Speaker 2:Yes, really helpful. And I am working with a woman named Lucy, I really like at Central Ohio Compounding Pharmacy, which I do laugh when you call. It's like if you are calling about your pet press one, if you're calling about HRT, I'm like great, I call her the HRT vet. I'm like what in the hell. But I have friends who love MIDI. I don't know if you've heard about MIDI. It's all online. Anyway, it's just you have to really advocate for yourself and find a doctor who listens and helps.
Speaker 1:So what are you most proud of with this book?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, oh, I'm proud that I finished it Publishing. We'll get a drink or coffee when you decide to go, because it is a fucked up industry.
Speaker 2:I know I've heard Four million books a year Four million come out. So there's a whole thing about getting a deal or not getting a deal. The traditional route is to get a deal and me being me, I'm wildly impatient and I know myself, I'm like I'm just going to publish it myself and I won't spend too much time on that, but it's fascinating. So, yeah, I, you know, I still like the gold stars. I still like it that people love the book. I have no idea how people would respond to it. You know, I assume my brother and sister and Camillus would be nice because they love me and some friends would be nice because they love me. So you have that first circle of people are going to be like oh yeah, I'm so proud of you, it's great. And then you get beyond that and get some reviews and get people sending you emails and notes that, yeah, it has surpassed any of my expectations in terms of reader responses.
Speaker 1:So you want to write another one.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I've started something. It's not like this, it's a little bit quirkier. We'll see.
Speaker 1:Is it nonfiction? Yes, can you give us any hints?
Speaker 2:Well, the first line is I am alone in the house of my body. How we I my relationship with my body over the years, thinking that if I write about it and understand it the same way I wrote about my mom and understood my relationship with my mom, maybe by the time I write the whole thing I'll have reconciled, I don't know. Interesting.
Speaker 1:It's a little weird. No, I like it, but yeah, you're searching searching like it's introspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, you're trying to. I'm trying to answer a question, and the question is why am I still at age 53? Why do I still have this body stuff? You know?
Speaker 1:so, your body image, yeah, body image, yeah what is your most vulnerable thing with your body image? Like what? What do you think people see?
Speaker 2:that's so funny. It's not what I think other people see. It's just what I see. Yeah, I don't know. I just think you have dysmorphia a little bit yeah, still yeah, and I think I put myself in like the emotionally healthy category, but I still have the stuff and so that's so I wrote the first.
Speaker 2:I wrote like 5,000 words or so and what I did is I went body part by body part and like, let's, let's look at that Really. And then I did this sounds so crazy. And then I did a score. Because I'm analytical, I'm like, okay, do we really, do you really hate your body? And I went through and I scored each body part one to five and I was like, actually, you like a whole lot about your body, but I had to like say it for myself and write it down. Yeah, I don't know what was what scored the highest.
Speaker 2:Um, oh, my god, I'm not. You're gonna have to read the book. It's so funny, it's I, and I try to write it with humor because stuff is funny. And then I go through the body parts and have scenes of things that have happened, like my big toe got stuck in a bike chain. When I was a little girl at the farm I was riding on the back of my brother's yellow banana seat bike, no shoes, and my big toe got stuck in a bike chain.
Speaker 2:Okay, we are a mile from the house. My sister rides her back, her bike back, to get my mom. Only in Chandler'sville Ohio would this happen. A big pickup truck comes and this huge man gets out and breaks the bike chain with his bare hands and picks me up and puts me in the truck, the cab of the truck where his wife is and she has, you know the Kleenex box, not the upright one, you know the rectangular, flat one. She grabs all the Kleenex and wraps it around my toe and I watch the Kleenex go from white to red with my toe. Anyway, nobody cares about my toe, I do. But as I was thinking about my body and body parts, I have all these memories attached to different parts of the body and it tells a story. I think it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:It doesn't really we'll see, yeah, but it may just be an essay. It might just be a big long essay, but you know it's cool though it's like you long essay.
Speaker 1:It's like everybody goes through their stuff and I think when you analyze it and you get into it, something's going to come out of it. I think that's awesome. I personally think your book was lovely.
Speaker 2:I think it was really really great, and it feels very like.
Speaker 1:I don't know big time author shit yeah, we'll see.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm proud of it. Um, I think paperback will come out later this year.
Speaker 1:I love it. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show and thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:So nice to be in person. Oh no, I love it. It's great, great.
Speaker 1:All right, if you're still out there following your girl, follow me on YouTube, spotify, apple or wherever you get your podcasts. And until next time, go buy the book the Order of Things by Sarah Connolly and keep moving baby.
